Talk:Rita Hayworth

Conversion to Islam

I think this has been passed over rather glibly. Any more information on this? It cannot be true that Hayworth never converted. The fact is, in order to marry a Muslim, anyone non-Muslim certainly has to convert to Islam in order for the marriage to be valid in the Muslim world - and her husband would certainly have insisted on it. I know something of this. The conversion involves a small private ceremony involving a short interview with a few Muslim clerics who want some reassurance that the convert is not going into this blindly - 'what do you know about Islam?' etc. Then you have to read a short declaration in Arabic that you are submitting to the religion, and that's it. As far as I know, once done, this can never be officially rescinded. It seems that Hayworth and her publicity machine pretended that she didn't convert, and obviously she only converted only in order to get married and not out of any religious conviction, which does look rather cynical. It is also a huge mistake to make if you still want your children to be brought up as Christians. One wonders at the consequences of the conversion not just in terms of the strain on her marriage, but on her entire practical and mental life thereafter.— Preceding unsigned comment added by F Antoniovsky (talk • contribs) 23:36, July 23, 2021 (UTC)

Comment. As per Aly Khan, there was a civil wedding on 27 May and a religious one the following day, both in Cannes. No citations at that article as well. Jay ^(Talk) 07:24, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Islamic law does not prohibit a Muslim man marrying a Christian woman, it prohibits a Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim man. Marianapinera (talk) 23:15, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Rita Hayworth's Romani heritage

I need help confirming Rita Hayworth, born Margarita Carmen Cansino is of Romani orgin.

Her middle name is Carmen, which could be named after the Spanish Romani woman in the opera Carmen, or her grandmother Carmen Reina, whose descent is unknown. Rita is from a family of flamenco dancers, but that does not guarantee she is Romani. Cansino is also a Jewish family surname, and a Flamenco author confirms Rita's grandfather, Antonio Cansino Avecilla was of Sephardi Jewish descent, but does not mention Romani explicitly.

References

I need help confirming this in a good source. Is there really no interview confirmation with any of the Dancing Cansinos or Rita's siblings or uncles and relatives, etc.?

Unfortunately the sources comes from a personal blog of a journalist/flamenco critic who does not provide a source for his claims, considering the Romani ethnicity of Rita’s father is confirmed by two scholarly sources while Sephardic heritage is not mentioned in either, I would not deem this source to be unreliable per WP:BLOGS. Cheers. TagaworShah (talk) 09:50, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

There are any real source to the claim of romaní origins, and the name Carmen is not related to any particular ethnicity in Spain. Marianapinera (talk) 22:43, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Sources related to Romani descent

@Raderich: Hello, you were incorrect in your assessment that none of the sources state she was Romani. The first source by Ian Hancock, she is mentioned in a list of notable people of Romani descent, the second source by Dr. Donald Kendrick explicitly states that she has a “Spanish Gypsy father.” And the third source by Dr. William Nericcio also explicitly states that “Conjecture abounds that she was, in fact, part or all Gypsy.” Please next time be more careful in reading the sources before removing sourced content and let me know if you have any further questions. Best, TagaworShah (talk) 01:47, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

OK, I added the "partly" part. Thanks.--Raderich (talk) 12:38, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

@Raderich: The “partly” would be original research since none of the sources mention him as partly Romani, they just say he was Gypsy/of Romani descent, so that would be the most accurate wording of the section, the “partly” is not an improvement. TagaworShah (talk) 16:20, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

His sister Elisa Cansino is said to have been only half "Romani". How about that? Could she be 50% and he 100%, even though they were siblings?--Raderich (talk) 21:09, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

The fact is that the source "We are the Romani People" only mentions Antonio Cansino (Rita's grandfather) as being of Romani descent. Btw, Carmen was an extremely popular name in southern Spain at that time. It has nothing to do with "Romani" people. Besides, Eduardo may not even have known what "Romani" means. There's no evidence that he spoke the language or shared the real Romani culture. I think that Gispy (or the Spanish "gitano" for that matter) is a more proper adjective here. Many Spanish people may have been called that according to their way of life, rather than their ethnicity. You even pointed out the fact of "Jewish ancestors" (even though there were no Jews as a separate group of people in Spain since 1492). How could he have been 100 % "Romani" if there's supposed to be some Jewishness there too? It makes no sense to me...--Raderich (talk) 21:30, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

@Raderich: The Elisa Cansino Wikipedia article is unsourced in its claim that only Antonio Cansino was Romani, so i’m unsure why that’s being brought up here. The name “Carmen” also has zero relevance here. Gypsy/Gitano are exonyms for Romani people, there is a Wikipedia consensus to use native names, Romani will stay. There is evidence that they practiced specifically Romani flamenco culture but even that is of little relevance, you can be of Romani descent and not know anything about Romani people. As for Jewish heritage, I did not bring that up, but since you brought that up, I haven’t seen any reliable sources confirm any Jewish heritage, as far as I know that theory comes from their surname being Cansino which is also a Sephardic Jewish surname, but like most Jewish surnames it’s also used by non-Jews, there weren’t any recent ancestors who were recorded as being Jewish or practicing Judaism in their recent ancestry. As Dr. Nericcio said, conjecture abounds that Eduardo Cansino was full or half Romani, the ethnicity of Antonio Cansino’s wife is unknown, some like Dr. Donald Kendrick refer to Eduardo Cansino as fully Romani, so that’s why it’s best to put of Romani descent, because that is what most aligns with the sources. Cheers. TagaworShah (talk) 00:03, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

The name "Carmen" was brought up earlier in this talk page. If the ethnicity of Antonio Cansino's wife is unknown, you can't just assume it's Romani. The only sure fact is that Eduardo Cansino was Spanish, which is both a nationality and an ethnicity, and it seems to me that you're trying to downplay this fact by pointing to the idea that Rita's father was "something else". By the way, in Spain the native name for gypsies is not "Romani", it's "calé" or "caló".--Raderich (talk) 08:34, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

@Raderich: Nobody is assuming anything about Antonio Cansino’s wife, she is not even mentioned in this article, the sources state that Eduardo Cansino was of Romani descent so that’s what should be reflected in the article, it is original research to make any other assumptions about his ethnicity than are not reflected in the sources. Calé is the native name of a certain subgroup of Romani people, they are not the only Romani people in Spain and they are a subgroup of Romani people so that’s what would be most appropriate. Nobody is marginalizing your viewpoint, please remember to assume good faith, but the fact of the matter is that Eduardo Cansino did not even claim to be ethnically Spanish, but rather descended from “Moorish royalty” per Dr. William Nericcio who found that to be a fantastical tale and identified his father as being known as a “Gypsy” in Spain. The sources exist for a reason, Wikipedia is not based on personal opinion or original research. TagaworShah (talk) 14:11, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

How about adding "was of at least partial Romani descent" or something similar? That's the only way to be consistent with the sources without claiming that he was 100% gitano, which there's no proof of and he even claimed to have a different heritage (as far as I know, Romani people don't descend from the Moors).--Raderich (talk) 22:35, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

@Raderich: His “moorish” heritage was confirmed to be just a tall tale he told in America, in Spain, he and his family were known as Romani. Saying of Romani descent doesn’t not imply that he is only of Romani descent, just that he has the descent since it is the only sourced ethnic heritage that is described for him in the sources, the sources mention him as Romani so it is perfectly fine to say he is of Romani descent, no need for extra qualifiers if the sources do not use them as well. TagaworShah (talk) 01:26, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Romaní or Sephardic ancestry

I would actually like to discuss how "academic" sources are more reliable than interviews with Rita Hayworth's family and Spanish journalists, because it seems that the distrust is really due to a case of linguistic discrimination, rather than reality.

The sources on Rita Hayworth's sephardic heritage are based on the claim of her relative Rafael Casino Assens, a Spanish poet and writer who investigate his family bloodline, meanwhile the aren't any source of her family claiming to be Romani descendant... What are these american academics based on and how are more reliable? In reality they are much less reliable because of their remoteness from primary sources. Marianapinera (talk) 23:10, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

@Marianapinera: I would suggest you familiarize yourself with how Wikipedia works and the guidelines for content inclusion, especially the requirements for reliable sources. The citations that you added are considered blogs and thus are not reliable sources. The academic sources confirming her Romani descent are reliable academic sources. Primary sources such as distant family members and flamenco bloggers are not considered reliable. People like Barbara Leaming and William Nericcio also did research into her family bloodline, including Spanish-language sources where Leaming challenged Eduardo Cansino’s claims of royal Moorish ancestry by stating that Antonio Cansino was known as a “Gypsy” in Spain. Nericcio also states that the conjecture of sources indicate full or partial Romani ancestry on her father side. Foreign language sources are fine, as long as they are reliable, none of the reliable sources or biographers discussing her heritage mention any recent Sephardic ancestry besides possible connections with her surname. TagaworShah (talk) 01:45, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

It would be good to scrutinize the sources consulted by these academics, since they are not experts in Spanish society and their cultural expressions, such as the use of the nickname "gypsy" for any artist related to flamenco, which continues to this day, even to artist like Björk, who we know as "gypsy of the snow". Would a foreign understand the joke of would consider that we "recognized her as Roma"? But the discussion does not go that way, but about that the sources presented are valid according to the standards of the wikia.

In the first place, it is specified that the academic sources are the base but that they are not infallible and that they can be discussed with other types of sources, especially if there are several currents that are ignored (as in this case, in which Spanish researchers differ that what American academics say.)

Secondly, it is also established that blogs can be perfectly used as a source as long as they meet certain reliability criteria. Manuel Bohórquez's investigation meets the requirement for the "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications" perfectly. How can be his blog not considered a reliable source despite meeting the requirements? Saying that the rejection is because "it's a blog" is not a valid argument. Marianapinera (talk) 05:07, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

@Marianapinera: Relevant field is the key word there. Manuel Bohórquez may have experience with Flamenco but he is definitely not a subject matter expert on genealogy and the heritage of the Cansino family. And when it comes to blogs versus academic sources, the academic sources are preferred over the blogs. Having studied Romani culture and identity throughout the world, I know there was a great distinction between “Gypsy” and “Payo” flamenco dancers in Spain during that period, payos were not called “Gypsy” and vice versa. Also people like William Nerricio speak Spanish natively, so it’s not an issue of not understanding the language, multiple reliable sources in conjecture state she is Romani. TagaworShah (talk) 07:34, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

If Manuel Bohórquez does not classify from a reliable source because he is a flamenco critic, the research of a language teacher and literary critic is only literature and should not be use as an academic source. Wikipedia should only keep the information from a real reliable source, and show that his father was of Spanish nationality, without any reference to a certain ethnic group.

And as a student of the Spanish Romani culture, I tell you that you should review your information about that gypsy/payo separation, because it is false. As a more direct example, I will tell you that Lola Flores is called a gypsy because she is the lover of a gypsy, Manolo Caracol, not because she is. Marianapinera (talk) 15:42, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

@Marianapinera: The difference is that they are actual published reliable sources and not blogs. You do not get to personally decide what “real” reliable sources are based on your own personal evaluation, the criteria for sources is listed in WP:RS. Half of the article is basically sourced by Leaming anyway. And Lola Flores was Romani, her maternal Grandfather was Romani and she claimed her mother was as well, that is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand so I will not be discussing it further. If you do not have any other reliable sources to bring to the table, then we are done here. TagaworShah (talk) 16:18, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Veo que simplemente no sabes nada de lo que hablas pero tienes muchas ganas de reclamar famosos Marianapinera (talk) 16:25, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Lola Flores have a lot of videos saying that she is not romaní, and romanís don't claim her, because to be considered Romani they need to be only Romani blood. If you don't have, you are a "merchero". Marianapinera (talk) 16:30, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

In fact, yes, you are personally deciding that Bohorquez's research is useless because according to you he does not count as an expert even though he is a scholar of the family branches of flamenco artists such as the Cansino family, which mean he is an expert on the materia, and Wikipedia does allow the use of blogs in this particular case. In addition, the preference of one source over another is also something that is your criteria because it is not what it says in the rules, which clearly state that this case is allowed and which also allows to fully explain that there are discrepancies. The information from these writers has not been deleted, other information from experts has been added. That you do not want to allow it is your personal criterion with censorious spirit of other narratives. Marianapinera (talk) 16:41, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Mulholland Drive film

Rita Hayworth poster. Main character Rita. 71.183.0.84 (talk) 02:25, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Fake photo

Why use a computer colorized/manipulated version of a B/W magazine soap ad of a B/W movie and call it "Hayworth in Gilda"? Was somebody feeling artistic? 2A02:AA1:1141:8DD0:A18E:CEA2:6A43:B610 (talk) 21:39, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Hayworth's Romani Ancestry is still dubious

Despite what user TagaworShah said, the three sources given for her father having Romani ancestry are not scholarly and don't confirm Hayworth's Father having Romani ancestry at all. 2 of the sources are books that simply include her in a list of people with Romani ancestry without providing any proof or source. The third source is the only one that's not a simple list and only speculates whether her father was Romani or not, it doesn't state firmly that he was. Quotes from the source: "others called his father a Gypsy", "conjecture abounds that she was all or in part gypsy" "she always reminded me of a gypsy". The site Ethnicelebs looked through Hayworth's ancestral records and found no indication of her father having gypsy ancestry. In addition Rita Hayworth played a Gypsy in the 1935 film "Under the Pampas Moon" which may have contributed to the conjecture of her having Romani ancestry. The fact is whether her father had Gypsy ancestry is merely speculation and isn't known for sure. Emre Özgür Yildirim (talk) 10:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)