Template talk:Jewish and Israeli holidays

New Israeli holidays as religious holidays

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Before this erupts into an edit war: how do the participants feel about making a seperate category in this box for Israeli national holidays? Not all POVs will agree that Yom Ha'atzma'ut is a Jewish religious holiday. JFW | T@lk 15:06, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I've changed the template to reflect the above. Please comment. I have also put all the Sukkot-related holidays under one link, as all of them link to Sukkot anywayz. JFW | T@lk 14:51, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Why are "Sukkot, Hoshanah Rabbah, and Shemini Atzeret" in one link, and Simchat Torah under another? Hoshanah Rabbah is part of Sukkot, and Simchat Torah is part of Shemini Atzeret. Dreyfus 00:04, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think it should be. The Israeli state and Zionists can be accused of hijacking Judaism for political purposes. Some of these are secular holidays. --MacRusgail 00:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

All of the following Orthodox Jewish organizations accept these four new days as Jewish holidays, and not just Israeli state holidays: The Union of Orthodox Congregations and Rabbinical Council of America; The United Hebrew Congregations of the Commonwealth (United Kingdom); and The Chief Rabbinate of the State of Israel. All of Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism accept these four new days as Jewish holidays, and not just Israeli state holidays. The same is true for the smaller, newer groups, the Union for Traditional Judaism and the Reconstructionist movement. To the best of the my knowledge, no Hasidic or Haredi group accepts these as religious holidays. As for secular Jews who do not actively observe Judaism as a religion, most seem to have accepted Yom HaShoah and Israel Independence Day as real Jewish holidays; the other two days secular Jews outside Israel probably wouldn't know about. RK

Of course, that is why these holidays are on the same template. However, you must be aware that the Haredi view is quite unlike that of the OU and the RCA. To satisfy all opinions, I have seperated the two. JFW | T@lk 12:27, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fine by me. I started a brief section on this topic in the Jewish holidays article, but this can be edited and revised. RK 14:46, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)

I object to the juxtaposition of secular modern Israeli holidays with ancient Torah holidays. They have nothing at all in common and it is nothing but misleading to suggest otherwise. I propose that this template be split into two: One for secular holidays and one for Torah ones. Yehoishophot Oliver 13:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

So no one objects to my suggestion to splitting up the box in this way? If so, I will split it so. Yehoishophot Oliver 15:26, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Since there was still no objection, and several weeks have passed, I have carried out my suggestion. This template has now been divided into two separate templates: Template:Jewish holidays and Template:Israeli holidays. For the meantime, I have redirected the old template to Template:Jewish holidays, because the majority of the holidays are there, and I will go to each of the Israeli holidays and direct them with Template:Israeli holidays. Yehoishophot Oliver 11:49, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I actually do object to this. I didn't notice this thread which had been dormant for three years. Most people don't notice discussions on templates. Most Jews do celebrate the Israeli holidays as Jewish holidays. Due to the reason that people objected to the incorporation of the Israeli holidays into the Jewish holidays, the compromise made was seperating them into seperate sections. This was a compromise that appeased both sides of the debate. I apologize, but the way you split it into two templates doesn't take into account the majority opinion that they are all Jewish holidays. I think we need to preserve the compromise and revert back to the sections of a single template. Valley2city 03:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, since most Jews consider them Jewish holidays, they should be here, having them seperate within the table was a compomise made recognizing not everyone considers them Jewish holidays. I have reverted the change. Epson291 (talk) 06:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted back the change made without consensus. Most Jews do not consider them religious holidays, because they are not. They're secular days instituted by the secular gov't. It makes no sense to lump them together with religious days like Yom Kippur. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 14:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how we would measure "most". First of all, when asking whether "most Jews" observe something as a Jewish holiday we must be discussing only that subset of Jews that observes Jewish holidays in the first place. Those to whom a Jewish holiday is just a day on the calendar can't be counted for this purpose. Now of observant Jews, quite a lot do observe these days as religious holidays, by saying hallel, omitting tachanun, special prayers, etc. And quite a lot completely ignore them, or, if they live in Israel, observe them only as secular holidays. In Israel, probably a majority of observant Jews do keep them; outside Israel, probably a majority don't. So how do we handle that?

Well, how about Maimouna? That's certainly celebrated as a Jewish holiday, by those who celebrate it at all. And it's certainly not a secular holiday. So should it be counted as a Jewish holiday and included in the template, even though most Jews have barely heard of it? I don't know, but if it's decided to include Maimouna then I'm not sure on what grounds these other days can be excluded. (The same argument applies to such days as Yud Tes Kislev or the fast of the 20th of Sivan.) -- Zsero (talk) 15:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Yhoishophot, Jewish religious holidays have notghing to do with Israeli holiday's and should be kept separate. Shlomke (talk) 06:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

You split these two templates without any discussion so I reverted it (and after two objections), unless there is consensus it shouldn't be moved. To quote form RK above, "All of the following Orthodox Jewish organizations accept these four new days as Jewish holidays, and not just Israeli state holidays: The Union of Orthodox Congregations and Rabbinical Council of America; The United Hebrew Congregations of the Commonwealth (United Kingdom); and The Chief Rabbinate of the State of Israel. All of Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism accept these four new days as Jewish holidays, and not just Israeli state holidays. The same is true for the smaller, newer groups, the Union for Traditional Judaism and the Reconstructionist movement. To the best of the my knowledge, no Hasidic or Haredi group accepts these as religious holidays. As for secular Jews who do not actively observe Judaism as a religion, most seem to have accepted Yom HaShoah and Israel Independence Day as real Jewish holidays; the other two days secular Jews outside Israel probably wouldn't know about." Epson291 (talk) 03:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The fact that a minority of Jews don't recognize them is why it is seperated from the other holidays. However it is POV to seperate it from this temeplate, those holidays are in fact reconized by many Jewish organziations as Jewish holidays as cited above. Epson291 (talk) 03:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

It's much more POV to put it in the template (which was done without consensus) clearly implying endorsement of the minority view that these days established by the secular anti-religious gov't are some sort of religious holidays. As for the groups you cite, The OU, the RCA, the UHCC, and the Chief Rabbinate of Israel (no kidding!) is a underwhelming minority of rabbinic organisations. And they don't necessarily say that all these days have religious significance, like the days in the Jewish holidays template, just that they think that they're all worth marking and participating in. You'll need sources to say otherwise. I'm reverting. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 04:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The fact that Conservative, Reform, and large Orthodox org.'s (like the OU), which make up a large part (if not the majority of Jews!) view these as Jewish Holidays makes them so, take your POV pushing elsewhere. Epson291 (talk) 01:02, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Most Jews are unaffiliated. The OU and the other groups you mentioned represents a minority of Orthodox Jews. You are the one who is POV pushing.

And you ignored my point: the issue is not whether these groups hold that these days are worth marking, which I don't deny, but whether they declared that all the days declared by the state also have religious significance, which would justify putting them on a par with the other days in the Jewish holidays template. The fact that they believe these says are worth marking could just mean a commemoration along the lines of the secular nature of these days as meant by the secular state that enacted these days as state holidays for all citizens, including non-Jews. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 04:11, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

First of all, these holidays aren't even marked as "Jewish holidays" in this template. They are marked at the less then satisfactory "Holidays in Israel," withholding judgment on the Jewish nature of the holidays. Second of all, for a large segment, if not the majority of the Jewish population sees nothing "secular" in the world's only Jewish state. Days such as Yom HaShoah and Yom Ha'atzmaut are marked with prayers at many synagogue or community events in the Diaspora that are religious in nature. These organziations have accepeted them as Jewish holidays, not simply Israeli state holidays. In addition Modern Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jews make make up the majority of Jews, Hasidic/Haredi do not. The majority opinion that they are all Jewish holidays. Epson291 (talk) 03:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Shabbat

Re: Shabbos as a holiday see: Jewish Holiday#Shabbat Jewbacca 22:27, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

Which holidays to include and how to organize them

I think we should come to some sort of consensus on which holidays to include and how to organize them. I just added Pesach Sheni but I'm not sure whether or not it should make the cut. It is a holiday ordained by the Torah but is it significant enough to include here. Should we have a separate section for the holidays so minor that the only change is that Tachanun is omitted and that very few people observe/know about (ie: Tu B'Av or Pesach Sheni)? I do agree that the four Israel holidays should retain their own section as a compromise as not to offend those who do not consider them holidays nor offending those who consider them full-fledged Jewish-religious holidays. And Should Yitzhak Rabin Memorial Day be included here? --Valley2city^₪‽ 17:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Community-specific holy days

Sigd and Maimouna he: articlemore info come to mind. Any others? Tomer^talk 00:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Added them. -Reuvenk_{T C} 13:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, see my comments below #Ethnic Jewish holidays. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 10:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Yitzchak Rabin day?

Whoever added ''Unofficial''{{spaces|3}} {{nowrap|[[Yitzhak Rabin|Yitzhak Rabin Remembrance Day]]}} to this venerable template has a lot of explaining to do...! I have removed it, naturally. IZAK 03:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Counting of the Omer

Since when is "Counting of the Omer" a Jewish holiday? Chesdovi 13:46, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic Jewish holidays

It is pure WP:NOR to go down this path. Either a day is a Jewish holiday or it is not. For the same reason that Israeli holidays could not eventually be included here, "Sigd" or "Mimouna" (the latter not being a holiday, more of a eating fest like a post Pesach beerfest) also cannot. Otherwise we may as well start including the likes of Chrismukkah or 19 Kislev into "ethnic Jewish holidays" -- so sorry, let's keep our focus here please, and not fall victim to ethnic splintering. IZAK (talk) 10:07, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Consistency

The name should all be in Hebrew, i.e. Rosh Hashana or all in English, i.e. New Year. At the monment there is a mix. Chesdovi (talk) 22:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

This reflects the fact that the article names are a mix, based on common usage. --Eliyak T·C 01:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Holidays / Fast days

The 3 weeks and 9 days are not holidays. If special periods are to be included, including sefirat haomer, they require a new field. Chesdovi (talk) 23:02, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

×== White House days?? ==

An editor has recently added White House days of celebration that have some connection with Jews. I challenge whether this belongs in this template, being that these are not really Jewish holidays, but holidays marked by non-Jews for some political or cultural reason. What do other editors think? Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 02:25, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I was the one who added them -- but would not fight a decision to delete them, bowing to the feelings of others. Because there was a section on "secular Israeli holidays," I thought a similar section on "secular U.S. holidays" (with strong Jewish links) -- comparing, for example, Days of Remembrance of the Victims of the Holocaust as a U.S. secular observance to Yom Hashoa as an Israeli secular observance. I thought the addition made sense, and would allow others to know about these secular observances. Again, though, I don't feel strongly enough about the issue to fight if others agree this new section should be deleted. I'll wait to see what others decide! Thanks! (I know I'm still learning....). NearTheZoo (talk) 02:42, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

If we are to keep this section, I think we should rename it to something that encompasses the entire diaspora, not just the United States, but I also fear that if we start putting these things here I think we'll have a case of "ein l'davar sof", we'll have no end of the matter. On another note, Yehoishophot, I undid your change of Modern Holidays to Secular Israeli holidays because we've had previous discussion above on this talk page on the matter and consensus indicates that most Jews consider these four holidays to have religious implications and content as well. I think that any further change should come as a result of sufficient discussion. Thanks, Valley2city^‽ 02:05, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Valley2city, the earlier discussion as I recall was about whether to include these days in this template altogether, but I accept your edit of the heading. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 21:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I very much like the idea of expanding the section (and title) to Diaspora National/International Observances (or something like that) -- and think those who open the template to learn more about "Jewish" observances might be interested to learn about the ways other nations or the international community have set aside time to honor and recognize Jewish contributions. I won't add more opinions -- :) -- and just wait to see what the consensus is, because I also understand the point of view of editors who might object. On the other hand, if we limit the list to official observances, there might not be that many.... NearTheZoo (talk) 13:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

You'd just have to take out the word "Jewish" from the title, since these are non-Jewish days. I recommend putting it in a separate template instead. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 21:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate it Yehoishophot. Meanwhile, do you think perhaps WikiProject Judaism is alive enough to be a rallying point for centralized discussions, not just on this, but on other pertinent topics. I admit I haven't been paying much attention there recently because most of my recent wiki time has been spent on maintenance instead of content, but now that I'm on vacation from school I'll be able to spend more time coordinating article namespace. I think we should bring it up to discussion on WP:JEW. Valley2city^‽ 22:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 02:20, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Until decision is made whether to keep the new sub-section or not, I went ahead (based on comments, above) and retitled it for now: "Diaspora Secular Observances Honoring Jews and Judaism" NearTheZoo (talk) 18:52, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Yehoishophot Oliver. And what pray tell are "U.S. secular observance"? Looks like it's time to split up and create a template for RELIGIOUS, meaning of Judaism's holidays. Chasidic holidays should get their own template too. No use in trying to squeeze all the opposites into one template when there is no such animal in reality or fact. IZAK (talk) 06:49, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree with those of the above editors who said that this "holiday" should be removed. It is not a holliday, nor is it Jewish, and that's clear enough. Debresser (talk) 09:06, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Chassidic holidays?

The holidays are specific to Chabad, a sect of 200,000 people. Considering there are more than 13 million Jews, holidays commemorated by 200,000 of them (roughly 1.5%) probably don't belong on the template. See WP:UNDUE and WP:CHABAD. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:07, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

• • Sigd and Mimouna are found in the template, and they are also kept by a smaller sector of the community, especially the latter. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 17:50, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
• Um, there are not 200,000 Lubavitchers in the world in any case. Maybe a tenth of that at most. IZAK (talk) 06:46, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

There are at least 200,000 Lubavitchers in the world, as I have argued elsewhere. Nevertheless, I agree that specific Chabad festivals should not be included in this template. Debresser (talk) 18:53, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

19 Kislev

The Hasidic holiday of 19 Kislev was removed today by Brewcrewer in this edit with editsummary: please find a consensus to include this "holiday" celebrated by a superminority apparently and please find a consensus for this misdescribed category.

As I explained already in my previous edit to this template, 19 Kislev is not an exclusively Lubavitch holiday, but is noted by other hasidic groups as well. The same seem to be the opinion of Redaktor, who in this edit of 29 June 2010 removed 11 Nissan as a strictly Lubavitch holiday, but left 19 Kislev in place.

In addition, 19 Kislev was added in this edit on 16 May 2010. That is to say, a year ago. Therefore I think the burden on proof for consensus is clearly on Brewcrewer, if he feels he can prove that there is no consensus to have this holiday here in this template. Debresser (talk) 07:00, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

See the section right above this one, where all non-SPA editors did not think it belonged. Count myself among them.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:07, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

That ignores the argument that 19 Kislev is celebrated by other Hasidic groups as well. What does SPA stand for? In addition, you can hardly say that that discussion came to any consensus. Some argued against, and their arguments were refuted by as many editors in favor. As you see, none of those involved deemed it justified to actually remove 19 Kislev. Debresser (talk) 18:33, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

It ignores the argument because no source was provided to support the argument.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 02:50, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Do you mean that since you yourself weren't aware of this, therefore you need a source? If you were hasidic you'd know. Debresser (talk) 09:36, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

If 19 Kislev is celebrated by Hasidim other than Chabad, why does 19 Kislev refer only to its significance among the Lubavich? I thought we had discussed this a year ago and agreed to remove 19 Kislev and other Chabad holidays. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:28, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree that 19 Kislev is celebrated most by Chabad hasidim. The article mentions that it is also the day the Dov Ber of Mezeritch passed away, but indeed does not mention that it is celebrated by other hasidim as well. That should be amended. Debresser (talk) 08:33, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Slight reorganizing of the template

Hi, all. I had no idea when I started this exercise how contentious this template has been over time. I'm not looking for that, don't want that, and don't think this particular edit really needs that.

I noticed over the holidays that "Chol Hamoed" wasn't in the template, so I added it. (Subsequently I also added "Ten Days of Repentance" to the "High Holy Days" portion of the template.) Debresser (talk · contribs) noted that it wasn't obvious why Chol Hamoed ought to live near Sukkot in the template, and I added that the same was true about Isru Chag. So what to do? ...

I decided to reorganize the "Jewish holidays and observances" section by adding a couple of additional "child" boxes like the one for High Holy Days. The main change is the addition of the "Three Pilgrimage Festivals" box, and there I further divided things so that each of the three (Pesach, Shavuot, Sukkot) gets a line, and a fourth line gets items that should otherwise appear more than once (Chol Hamoed and Isru Chag). Each line then got not only its core item, but also the others that directly relate to it. So Pesach gets "Fast of the Firstborn" and "Pesach Sheni," and Sukkot gets Hoshana Rabba, Shemini Atzeret and Simchat Torah. (Again, please no fussing here over the inclusion of Shemini Atzeret/Simchat Torah on the Sukkot line. I substantially rewrote the Shemini Atzeret article, and all the details are there. But for this purpose, those two days appear in my Sukkos machzor, so they belong on the Sukkos line.)

I thought about putting "Counting of the Omer" in at Pesach ... or Shavuot ... and decided that (a) as a period of observance, it doesn't really belong with either one all that well, and (b) Lag Ba'Omer should come nearby, and Lag Ba'Omer really doesn't belong near either one. So I left them with the other general holidays and observances.

Shabbat also gets a box, because Shabbat should always have at least as great a status as anything else.

I really don't want to hear arguments right now about whether the Israel holidays belong or don't. I didn't change that box. And same is true for anything else, included (ethnic holidays box) or not (Chasidic observances). I just would like buy-in over whether people think the organization of the days within the "Jewish holidays and observances" section works for them.

The proposed revision is located here. If I get an all-clear in seven days I'll replace the template with the sandbox version. Thanks to all.

StevenJ81 (talk) 20:35, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Wow, it looks great! But would you perhaps be open to creating two seperate lines for holidays that are joyous occasions (such as Hannukah), and holidays that are mourning (such as Tisha Be'av)? It helps separate it more. --Jethro B 20:55, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Also, please make sure to incorporate changes made to the main template in the last days. Debresser (talk) 06:29, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

All the recent changes in the main template are incorporated (I think).

However, I'm not sure I really want to create separate lines for "joyous" and "mourning" observances. I certainly understand the sentiment behind the idea. But I'm not sure it really helps people navigate. "High Holy Days" and "Three Pilgrimage Festivals" are recognized groupings--they're the ones I identified in the draft of the Jewish holidays article. "Joyous" and "mourning" minor days aren't recognized groupings in the same way. As things stand now, Tzom Gedalia is in "High Holy Days"--do you move it? Sefirat HaOmer has become a period of mourning, but it is neutral on its face and connects two festivals. And separating "joyous" and "mourning" means separating Sefirat HaOmer from Lag BaOmer, to which it is closely connected. Finally, if someone doesn't know what one of these days is at all, do they know to look on both lines?

As things stand now, everything not in one of the subcategory boxes is listed in its calendar order (and in its order in the Jewish holidays article). I think at this point it is easy enough to find everything that is in the general category without breaking that up further. My two cents, anyway.

StevenJ81 (talk) 17:47, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

So here's one more question before we publish. The word "Jewish" in the title of this template links (appropriately) to Jewish holiday. However the word "Israeli" links to Israel, not Public holidays in Israel. Any reason why? I'd think the latter is more appropriate. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:32, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Seems good to me to make the change to public holidays in Israel. --Jethro B 01:03, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

 Done StevenJ81 (talk) 18:02, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Inclusion of Holocaust Memorial Days

I'm not sure what I think of Chesdovi's recent addition to this template. I'm not going to revert—actually, if we keep this, I'll reorganize it just a little (see below)—but I thought we ought to discuss this a bit. I plan to add notices of this discussion at WP:WikiProject Judaism and at Talk:Jewish holidays. The formal proposal is:

Retain this new section of Holocaust Memorial Days, reorganized as indicated below. Though I am making the proposal, I'm officially neutral and not !voting. I'm not sure whether we should retain this or not. My only strong feeling is that if we retain it, we should do so the way I suggest below.

Arguments in favor (my opinion)

• All Jews have a stake in Holocaust remembrance.
• Jews do tend to participate, at least to some extent, in their countries' Holocaust Remembrance Day events, no matter what day they fall on.

Arguments against (my opinion)

• To the extent that Jewish communities themselves mark Holocaust remembrance, they tend to do so on Yom HaShoah. Observances on "national" or "international" Holocaust days tend to be secondary or political, at most. Yom HaShoah is the only real Jewish Holocaust Remembrance Day.

Some Orthodox communities do not observe Yom HaShoah on grounds of not creating a day of mourning during Nisan. But those groups primarily mark Holocaust remembrance on the existing fasts of 10 Tevet and/or Tisha b'Av, not on the "national" or "international" Holocaust days.

• There are many of these "national" days. This list will get fairly long, and in that way may not be fully appropriate here. (That part would be partially alleviated by my proposal below.)

How I would reorganize it if we keep it (my opinion, but I'll commit to doing it)
If you see how I set up the Three Pilgrimage Festivals, I put each of the three and its associated days on a single line, then added a fourth line for a couple of items that apply to more than one. Here, I would make the two lines look like this:

[1] Yom Hashoah • International Holocaust Remembrance Day
[2] National Remembrance Days: Romania • United Kingdom • United States • etc. (alphabetized by country)

If you even just mouse over those national links, you'll see that they're piped links to the specific day in question. In this particular setting, I think that is actually a more meaningful and useful way to list them than by their particular formal names, which people don't generally know.

!Votes

Please !vote here. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:30, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

First things first. I'll just revert this for a second, and then I'll come back here. Debresser (talk) 17:26, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay. After doing what needs to be done, now let's explain. These days are not Jewish and they are not Israeli. So why the ... should they be on this template?! Debresser (talk) 17:27, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Holocaust days are not specifically about the Jewish loss of life (although Jews were by far the majority of the dead, the deaths of others - like Roma - are also marked). On a side note, can this template not be better organised (specifically the subsections in the top half)? It looks awful at the moment. Also, why are the months in there? (moved below) Number 57 17:38, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

"Holocaust days are not specifically about the Jewish loss of life", but it was Jews who got these days instituted and Jews are among those commemorating and organizing others to commemorate them. Would we get rid of Yom Hashoah? Chesdovi (talk) 18:00, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

For a variety of reasons (see above), Yom Hashoah is different, and no one is talking about removing it. The discussion generally is about the rest of them. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I do not see how the Israeli Holocaust Memorial Day is any different from other countries Holocaust Memorial Days. They all mainly revolve around the treatment of the Jews:

Romania: October 9 was chosen as a date for this event because it marks the beginning of Romanian deportations of Jews to Transnistria.

Bulgaria: July 16: The day of the revocation of the plan to expel the country's Jewish population

France: March 10: Remembrance marking the mass arrest of 13,152 Jews in Paris on this date in 1942

Poland: April 19: Anniversary of Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

These days are Jewish memorial days. I fail to see what is so more Jewish about Yom Hashoah? Chesdovi (talk) 18:21, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Because they are not exclusively about Jewish suffering, whereas (according to the article) Yom HaShoah is. I would also point out this template is for days marked by Jews, whereas non-Israeli Holocaust memorial days are generally marked by everyone, so cannot really be called Jewish holidays. Number 57 18:35, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Your going at this the wrong way. Yom Hasho'a is an Israeli day of remembrance. It is not a Jewish day of remembrance. It doesn't have the least thing to do with Judaism. So Yom Hasho'a is here as an Israeli day of remembrance. The other days are not Israeli, and have nothing to do here. The fact that they are related to Jews does not in the least make them "Jewish". Debresser (talk) 22:17, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't see why other Holocaust days in other countries should be ignored, while we allow the Israeli one to feature. Chesdovi (talk) 18:38, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh, that I can explain to you very simply. See the title of the template? "Jewish and Israeli holidays". Let me help you a little more: Jewish and Israeli holidays. Get it? Debresser (talk) 21:46, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Organization of Template

[Moved from just above] On a side note, can this template not be better organised (specifically the subsections in the top half)? It looks awful at the moment. Also, why are the months in there? Number 57 17:38, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I would encourage you to look at the discussion above at #Slight reorganizing of the template. In general, I got good feedback on the current design.

Please do understand that there has been a lot of discussion over time as to what days should be included in the template, and that the contents of the template have been stable for a long while (until the recent change described just above). You can see that going back to the top of this page.

So if you think this looks "awful" at the moment, would you mind being specific about what you don't like and how you'd like it changed? Thanks. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:47, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the previous version (before your reorganisation) actually looked better. The problem is the subgroups, which create a lot of empty space on the template, both in the body and the side sections. This contrasts poorly with the seventh and eighth lines which are full.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you didn't reorganise my comments as you have done above. Number 57 18:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I meant no offense by reorganizing your comments. I was a little concerned they not get lost in the middle of what is likely to continue to be a contentious discussion on a different topic.

I assume you mean you prefer a version substantially like this one, right? I guess different people have different views as to what makes a navigation template work better. I don't have a problem with empty space at all. It just doesn't bother me, and I think it makes it easier to use.

Let me suggest we let the discussion above play out first. Meanwhile, I'll sandbox this and see if I can find a way to leave the current organizational structure in place without so much empty space. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

An obvious first step is putting all the articles related to the three pilgrim festivals in one row. I also think that is a good idea. Debresser (talk) 22:22, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

That's certainly one way to go. My own perspective is that (a) the current design makes the association of the various "lesser" links with their "parent" pilgrim festivals clear and (b) empty space in a navigation template is not a big deal. Obviously, you don't prefer that. Let's let this percolate for a day or two to see if anyone else comments. In the meanwhile, I'll go to the sandbox and see if I can find a way to accomplish both end goals. StevenJ81 (talk) 00:32, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I have no problem with empty space in templates. But in this case I agree that both visually and conceptually the three regalim are better placed in one row. Debresser (talk) 05:26, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

First of all, I'm going to leave the Holocaust Remembrance Day topic open a few more days, if you don't mind.

Second, I still prefer having each of the three Pilgrim festivals on a separate line. But my preference is mainly to keep each of the regalim and their respective "satellite" days, if you will, grouped. So have a look at my draft here, and tell me if this is a reasonable compromise. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:45, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Handling of months in this template

To some extent, I should ignore the recent activities here of the sockpuppet of a banned user. However, since that user made the relatively outrageous claim (contrary to WP:BMB) that "provided these edits are not disruptive, they are acceptable", let me stake out the following position explicitly:

• The template has ordered the months starting with Tishri, not Nisan, for a long while, and is stable in that respect
• The template has used the colloquial/common name for the month after Tishri (i.e., Cheshvan), and not its more formal name (i.e., Marcheshvan), for a long while, and is stable in that respect
• Whether one prefers those approaches or not, at minimum there is unquestionably reasonable justification for both of them

Therefore, any edit that attempts to change the status quo in either of these areas requires discussion on this talk page. And any edits to change that status quo without discussion on this talk page are inherently disruptive. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:14, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, of course. There is some pathetic person somewhere on this globe, who has nothing more important to do in life, no other wars to fight, than try to call Cheshvan - Marcheshvan. Probably a very bitter ("mar" in Hebrew) person. Debresser (talk) 15:54, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Yet another message to my talk page brought me here. This

Please note that we have discussed the month-order issue here before and decided on Tishrei first. If you don't like that please discuss on talk page. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:44, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

appears to be a lie, as I have commented before. No doubt if I am wrong about that links will be provided. 79.78.168.63 (talk) 11:35, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Changes proposed 2 June 2016

This discussion has been announced at WT:WikiProject Judaism and WT:WikiProject Israel. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:41, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I came here after the announcement at WT:WikiProject Israel, but can't understand what exactly is the scope of the discussion. Holocaust days ? Month names ? Something else ? Please clarify. “WarKosign” 06:48, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

@Chesdovi: There are two issues that play out here in the changes you have proposed. Please keep in mind that except with respect to the subject of the order of months, introduced by a banned user, this template has been stable for three years. I took the liberty of reverting on one issue and leaving your changes on one issue. But frankly, I think both need to be addressed. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Titles and subtitles

You have changed the top title from "Jewish and Israeli" to "Jewish". We have discussed over time having traditional holidays, Israeli civic holidays and ethnic holidays all included on the template, because religiously, there is some overlap in the concepts of traditional Jewish holidays, Israeli civic holidays and ethnic holidays. Keeping the title "Jewish and Israeli" allows us to keep these together in a single template without too much fuss. If you title the template "Jewish", people will argue whether or not "Israeli" or ethnic holidays even belong here. And unless you want to open that can of worms again, I think this title is better left intact.

As far as "Torah-based" and "rabbinically ordained", what's the point? The page Jewish holidays addresses that subject in detail. But this is a navigation template, not an encyclopedia article, and we don't need to be that detailed on the subject here. I could be persuaded differently on this title, but I think the original title is simple and effective. Describing the holidays as "Torah-based" and "rabbinically ordained" isn't wrong, of course, but it seems to be trying to make a point that just doesn't need to be made in this setting. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Completely agree with Steven on both accounts. The change to the title was incorrect and unacceptable. The second change is not an improvement. Debresser (talk) 21:49, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Holocaust memorials

I don't mind separating "Holocaust memorials" from the rest of the State of Israel holidays. That said, the legal status of Yom HaShoah in Israel in particular is important, and potentially allows it to live legitimately in the section on State of Israel holidays (and remembrance days).

I did not revert Chesdovi's addition of "Yom HaShoah UK", and in fact corrected its link. However, I'm not really sure I want it here. We discussed Chesdovi's proposals in this direction a while back; see #Inclusion of Holocaust Memorial Days above. In my mind, the only Holocaust memorial day that is truly Jewish is Yom HaShoah. The others are important in their own way, of course, but they are neither particularly observed by Jews nor specifically about Jews. So I still think they don't really belong here.

That said, if consensus has changed, then why in particular UK? Why not every one? (And if consensus has changed, I would then prefer to organize Holocaust memorial days as I proposed up above.) StevenJ81 (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Steven, what are you talking about? Debresser (talk) 21:50, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I clarified what I was talking about above. Sorry I wasn't more careful the first time.

More specifically, Chesdovi separated out the Holocaust memorial days from the (rest of the) State of Israel holidays, and added "Yom HaShoah UK" as a redlink to the template. I changed that link to Holocaust Memorial Day (UK). But I'd rather remove it, to tell you the truth. That's what all this is about. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:42, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I see. Although there is definitely logic behind that edit, I'd prefer to keep this template restricted to either Jewish holidays that are the same the world over, or strictly Israeli holidays. In other words, Jewish holidays from other localities in the world should not be in this template. In the case of Holocaust Memorial Day (UK) we should made sure it is linked from Yom HaShoah, by the way, if we didn't do so already. Debresser (talk) 09:22, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Maybe I will create a separate template for Holocaust remembrance days . StevenJ81 (talk) 11:38, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

I think a bunch of that has to be cleaned up in its own right before I would dream of making an own-template, leave aside adding any of it to this one. A bunch of the better-known, better publicized efforts have their own pages. International Day has its own page. UK has a page. US days, which coincide with Yom HaShoah, have their own page. And there is a page called Holocaust Memorial Days which is more or less a list article (albeit in the form of a table); it surely needs to be cleaned up and expanded.

Especially if we go with status quo ante, I wonder if we should add Yitzhak Rabin Memorial Day to either the article or the template or both. (Doesn't have its own page, BTW, just a section in the Rabin article. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:23, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Tentative close. @Debresser: We're close to seven days out, and Chesdovi has not come by to comment.

• I'm thinking we simply go back to status quo ante.
• The other possibility is to start from the current version, take out Holocaust Memorial Day (UK) (to leave Yom HaShoah alone on that line), and change the link structure in the title of that line from Holocaust memorials to Holocaust memorials. This way, we leave a sort of backdoor link to the broader concept of global Holocaust memorial days, as Chesdovi would like to see; at the same time, the only one we really call out as Jewish or Israeli is Yom HaShoah.

Thoughts? StevenJ81 (talk) 21:23, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

The best thought I have is that really this template should be split. One template for Jewish holidays, and another for Israeli holidays. Either way, the English Holocaust memorial day is neither, so I agree we should revert to the old version. At the same time, I dislike the idea of just the two of us deciding, without other input. Would you care to place a reminder on Chesdovi's talkpage (or perhaps even on WT:JUDAISM)? Debresser (talk) 21:56, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

I've pinged Chesdovi twice, and he hasn't appeared. I don't feel a strong need to hit him over the head. WarKosign thinks we ought to post a formal RfC. I don't know that people care that much; it's been posted at WT:JUDAISM and WT:ISRAEL already. To be honest, if this were an article I think I would post again at both WikiProjects, and I probably would ping Chesdovi a third time. But it's not. It's just a navigation template. So I'm just going to revert and be done with it. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:26, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

 Done StevenJ81 (talk) 13:28, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. For the record, I agree with your last post. Debresser (talk) 18:27, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Since

Do we really need the "since" additions for the secular holidays? By the way, not all religious holidays are from the same time either. Debresser (talk) 19:19, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't know how I missed this before. Must be because it was around the time of the chagim. I'd remove them, except (maybe) for the two that first appeared in the last decade. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:39, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

No further comments? I'm removing them, except for the two very recent ones. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:35, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Naming Jewish and Israeli holidays with in-English transliteration

It is common practice to call Jewish holidays in English with their names as transliterations from the Hebrew. For example, "Rosh HaShana" is not called "New Year (Jewish)" or "Sukkot" called "Tabernacles". Thus I submit that for the sake of consistency, all Israeli national holidays follow this same framework. The holiday is called, "Yom HaAtzmaut" and not "Independence Day (Israel)", and it should be "Yom HaShoah" and not "Holocaust Day" etc... AlanaDRubin (talk) 29 May 2017 —Preceding undated comment added 05:03, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

I have no problem at all with the edits you made here. But do remember that the policy here is based on what is most commonly used in English. So, for example, it would be quite wrong to have Passover appear (only) as Pesach, because in English it is far more frequently referred to as Passover. I think the template as it stands now is fine in that regard. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:37, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

@StevenJ81: Good point in regards to Passover, as that may be the one outlier. AlanaDRubin (talk) 9 June 2017

@AlanaDRubin: That said, be a little careful about capitalization issues. I know why you did what you did, but you broke at least one link that way, and the page (Yom tov sheni shel galuyot) has to be named that way because of WP:MOS issues around page names. So if you really wanted to capitalize that properly (and obviously you did), you needed to create a redirect to fix the link (which I did for you). StevenJ81 (talk) 19:28, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the capitalization: creating a redirect is fine, but the link should still use the same capitalization as the article, not the redirect. There is a reason why the title is as it is, and for that same reason, we should link it in the correct way. Same is true for using Hebrew names: we should only use the names of the articles on Wikipedia, precisely as they are, regardless of their language. Debresser (talk) 21:37, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Israeli Days of Remembrance and Jabotinsky & Herzl Days

Duplicate of posting at Talk:Jewish holidays § Herzl. Eliminating here to consolidate the discussion in one location. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:47, 9 June 2017 (UTC)