Talk:Herbert Morrison

Interesting facts

There are some other interesting facts about Herbert Morrison which are worth recording. It is often forgotten that he attempted an abortive coup against Clement Attlee after Labour had won the 1945 election. Attlee had not been at this stage been formally confirmed as the party's leader and Morrison tried to get his supporter Harold Laski to move a motion in the Parliamentary Labour Party calling for a leadership election. It was this that led to the memorable rebuke from Attlee to Laski: "A period of silence from you would now be welcome."

Morrison's inveterate plotting made him unpopular with his colleagues. One minister was once heard to lament that Morrison "was his own worst enemy," only to be met with the response from Ernest Bevin "not while I'm alive he ain't." Intriguingly, Morrison's grandson is the former Labour Cabinet minister Peter Mandelson, who had a similarly testy relationship with many of his political colleagues.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.159.95.125 (talk) 13:57, 8 October 2004 (UTC)

Page move

I've now properly moved the page, and merged the histories.

James F. (talk) 02:37, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why use an awkward parenthesis, when we could use either his middle name or his peerage title? Aren't we to prefer natural disambiguators, when possible? john k 03:13, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The established convention seems to be to use parentheses, and I think that is correct. The use of middle names should be reserved for people who actually used them as part of their name (Martin Luther King). We have a convention that life peers don't get their titles as part of their article title. Adam 03:29, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The latter simply is not true - we changed that convention a long time ago. Currently, life peerage titles can be used for disambiguation, and when the person is best known by their life peerage title (as Lord Falconer of Thoroton is, for instance). As to middle names, Herbert Morrison is certainly sometimes called Herbert Stanley Morrison - I've certainly seen his name listed as such on many occasions. The bit in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), doesn't address disambiguation, so I don't think it's authoritative one way or the other. I'm going to begin a discussion of that question at the policy talk page, however. Personally, I think Herbert Stanley Morrison makes the most sense for this page. john k 16:26, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that the life peer convention had been changed - the last time I was involved in one of these discussions it was insisted upon. It is true that you will see "Herbert Stanley Morrison" in printed references, just as you will see "John Harold Wilson." References do that to you once you're dead. But he wasn't called that in his lifetime. My view is that article titles should call the person what they were called in their lifetime, which in his case was 'Erbert. Middle names should only be used (a) when the person customarily used it in their name (John Stuart Mill) or (b) when there is absolutely no other way of disambiguating (eg, Kim Beazley and Kim Edward Beazley, both Australian politicians). Adam 22:46, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hey Adam, I agree with you that we should not use full names that are never used, if it is avoidable. (certainly James Harold Wilson would be a bad idea.) But I think (and there seems to be at least some support for me on the Use Common names policy page, that it is preferable to use a middle name to a parenthetical for disambiguation. I do wonder, though - is it possible that this Herbert Morrison is enough more famous than the other Herbert Morrison that we can just put his article at Herbert Morrison? I mean, this Herbert Morrison was a major British political figure who led the house of commons. The other one is basically an oddity - the guy who happened to be the radio announcer at the Hindenburg explosion. john k 17:02, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Since you have reverted my moving of the article, I'm not going to argue the point further. But I agree that this Herbert is much more famous than the other one, and should get the Herbert Morrison spot without the need for a disambiguation page. (The Beazleys are again an analogy here). Adam 04:53, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

When the two 'Winston Churchill-the-writers' met they agreed that the politician would use his middle initial to distinguish them.

There is more than a passing resemblence now between Mandelson and pictures of his grandfather in his mid-late 40s.

Jackiespeel 16:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Term as Deputy PM

Is there a reason why this ended in February 1951? He was still Lord President and Leader of the Commons until the following month. Timrollpickering 14:53, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Because he became Foreign Secretary (actually in March 1951). Viscount Addison became Lord President in March 1951. ( Viscount Addison, Lord President 9 Mar 51 - 26 Oct 51) --gobears87 (talk) 13:34, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

My statement above should not say "because he became F.S.", in fact he continued as Deputy PM. In any case, it is all correct now. The Deputy term in fact continued until Labour left office, and he was Deputy leader under Gaitskell after Attlee's resignation. --gobears87 (talk) 00:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

"Leader of Opposition"???

The box on top of Morrison's offices (right side of page) shows first that he was supposedly Leader of the Opposition, for something like one month.

I don't think this is correct, and if so, needs to be removed. Here is a quote from the Oxford DNB on Morrison: "The contest for [Attlee's] successor in December 1955 signalled the end of Morrison's hopes. Long-standing supporters of Morrison shifted to Gaitskell, and Bevan had the backing of the left. The first ballot was decisive—Gaitskell 157, Bevan 70, Morrison 40."

Any who can confirm or deny??? --gobears87 (talk) 13:37, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Answering myself. Confirmed this needs removing, as on Attlee's DNB entry it says: "After Labour's defeat in the general election of May 1955, Attlee, who had held his seat at West Walthamstow, stepped down as party leader in December."

I don't want to play with the boxes since I have no real idea how they work. PLEASE can someone remove the top box that is clearly incorrect?? Thanks! --gobears87 (talk) 13:48, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Have now removed "Leader of the Opposition" box, since Morrison never was in this position. Reference: http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/35121. He was Deputy Leader of the Opposition until 1959, but it doesn't warrant a box, IMHO. Feel free to add one back if someone really thinks it is necessary. Have added Lord President, which was missing. --gobears87 (talk) 00:02, 3 August 2010 (UTC) update gobears87 (talk) 00:03, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

From memory, he was briefly acting party leader in Dec 1955 (possibly at his own insistence, as he fought the leadership election on the basis that he was the natural choice), and the news that he had been humiliated in the ballot was brought to him in the Leader's room. I don't have a biography to hand to check. Mind you, Margaret Beckett always insisted that there is no such thing as "acting leader" and she actually was Labour leader for a few months in 1994. Course you were, dear.MissingMia (talk) 20:18, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Well someone has put it back and I wonder where they have proof from? gobears87 (talk) 19:24, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved Mike Cline (talk) 20:30, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

---

Herbert Morrison → Herbert Morrison (politician) – Neither the politician nor the journalist are good candidates for primary topic. The announcer's page gets 17.3K views in the past 90 days compared to 7.5K for the politician. Some of the hits for the politician may be misdirected-hits for the journalist. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 21:31, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. The politician held three of the most senior positions in the British Government and is an important historical figure. The other one was a radio reporter primarily known for a single event. WP:COMMONSENSE applies here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:53, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support. The stats said them all. In fact, either is too great or too obscure to be primary. --George Ho (talk) 08:18, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. Morrison was a very senior and important British politician. He should remain the primary. --gobears87 (talk) 19:41, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose as a leading British minister of the wartime and post-war goverments, he certainly deserves to be the primary subject. The fact that more people are interested today in an announcer is adequately dealt with by having a hatnote. The alternative would be to have a dabpage, but we rprefer the hatnote method, where there are only two articles invovled. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:47, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Economic Planning

Don't have a biography on hand to check, but wasn't he in charge of macroeconomic planning for the first years of the Labour Government? Then, as the economic crisis was worsening, he got mixed up in plotting to put Bevin in Attlee's place (Bevin refused saying "Who do you think I am? Lloyd George?) and control of planning was given to Cripps, who then replaced Dalton as Chancellor some time later.MissingMia (talk) 20:26, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi, slow to respond but no, he wasn't. FWIW, I wrote my PhD on economic & physical planning under Attlee & WC's 1951 govt... but for a source if you want to check, best place is Tomlinson (lots of articles, or books, e.g. Democratic Socialism and Economic Policy: the Attlee years 1945-51). Cheers --gobears87 (talk) 16:30, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps so, but as I recall Cripps' appointment as Minister of Economic Affairs that autumn was in part a slapdown of Morrison.Paulturtle (talk) 00:44, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Well I'll just reiterate the above suggestion - read Tomlinson! Plus he has a new excellent book out last year: Managing the Economy, Managing the People.... if you like economic history. :-) But NO, again, Morrison was not in charge of macroeconomic planning for the Attlee govt ever (EVER!). He had a role in industry as Lord President, not directly in economics, he was responsible for coordination not policy. In fact, Morrison himself claimed to have more of a role than he actually did - perhaps why people have that idea. See also Dow, Management of the British Economy 1945-60. Additionally the role Cripps was given ("Minister of Economic Affairs") was a newly created role and only actually lasted two months, effectively. When Dalton put his foot in it soon after Cripps then became ChEx. As it happens, Cripps took over Lord Pres duties when Morrison became ill in 1947, but none of his duties were ever because of any "slap down" of Morrison. Hope this helps. --gobears87 (talk) 20:58, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

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Wrong page?

The section of copy above the Contents list seems to have blown in from the main article. Can it be placed in its proper place? Valetude (talk) 23:27, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

It was an early, unsigned, comment that lacked a header. I have added a header and used the "unsignedIP" template to sign it. DuncanHill (talk) 23:35, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

MOS:ENDASH

Wikipedia:Hyphens and dashes

Discussion on whether Foreign Secretary or the full title should be used in the info box

A discussion has started at Talk:Foreign Secretary about which to use in the info and succession boxes. We should probably come to a consensus there before doing a slow edit war across multiple articles. Erp (talk) 05:37, 6 November 2024 (UTC)