Talk:Battle of Saragarhi

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Battle of Saragarhi article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3: 180 days

India: History Mid‑importance

	India portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Indian history workgroup (assessed as Mid-importance).

Military history: Asian / Indian / South Asia B‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

B

This article has been rated as B-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Asian military history task force
	Indian military history task force
	South Asian military history task force

Sikhism

This article is part of WikiProject Sikhism, an attempt to promote better coordination, content distribution, and cross-referencing between pages dealing with Sikhism. Please participate by editing the article, or visit the project page for more details on the projects.

Guidelines: Manual of Style - Naming conventionsSikhismWikipedia:WikiProject SikhismTemplate:WikiProject SikhismSikhism articles

Alternative views Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Archives

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by when more than 4 sections are present.

Victory of India, Not the Pashtuns on 25 July 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Indian Victory, not Afghan due to the fact that the Afghans couldn’t capture the Fort. 123.24.196.134 (talk) 07:54, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. NotAGenious (talk) 08:56, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pyrrhic Victory

I suggest that this battle be classified as a Pyrrhic Victory as the Afghans suffered heavy losses assaulting the fort and even though they won, they lost valuable time, allowing the British to recapture the fort. Romulus Cyrus (talk) 13:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have not seen a source that calls it a Phyrric victory. Alongside that, it would go against MILMOS#INFOBOX. Noorullah (talk) 19:39, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Original research and disruption by a sockmaster

This is regarding a WP:SPA (User:Gurdas Singh atwal) who disrupted multiple articles with original research, fake refs, and unreliable sources about Mazhabi Sikhs. They started editing on 18 November 2023 and got blocked for a month for sockpuppetry on 27 November 2023. But they badly mangled multiple articles during such a short span. As this is one of those articles, I am explaining the disruptive edits they made to this article:

In their first edit, they dumped a large amount of original research based on fake refs and unreliable self-published material. Here are the details about all the sources cited in that edit:
- This ref is a WP:UGC that doesn't even mention Mazhabi anywhere.
- This ref is from a museum site that again doesn't mention Mazhabi.
- This source is reliable, but it doesn't even mention the subject of this article, i.e. the battle of Saragrahi. It only confirms that Mazhabis are untouchables.
- The remaining two are the locally published Punjabi sources by likely fellow caste members that are neither reliable for history nor for caste. In fact, one of them – namely, Itihaas vich mazhabi sikha di jado jehad – is published by BlueRoseONE which is a self-publishing company (see WP:SPS for such sources).

In this edit, they again cited fake refs that don't even mention the battle in question:
- This source is reliable, but it doesn't mention the battle or the involved regiment (36th Sikhs) anywhere in it. The page cited by them only confirms that Mazhabis are "Outcastes".
- The other source cited by them is a reprint of a century-plus-old, unreliable source that was authored by a British Raj officer – see WP:RAJ for relevant links and discussion about such sources. It is available online – see here. Although they didn't cite any page number, this source again doesn't mention the battle or the 36th Sikhs anywhere in it.

In this edit, they added two new sources:
- This one is an unreliable WP:UGC, which again doesn't mention this battle or the 36th Sikhs.
- They cited this Punjabi source without citing any page number. In any case, this is published by a Sikh religious body (SGPC) and discusses a British Raj author, thereby making it unreliable for caste or history.
- The third one is the reprint of an unreliable British Raj source that I already discussed – it neither mentions the battle nor the 36th Sikhs.

So I will revert their disruption, as they simply dumped a large amount of original research by citing fake refs or unreliable sources. They also disrupted other articles before getting blocked. So I will also notify them about WP:GS/CASTE.

Finally, this battle was fought by the 36th Sikhs which was a single-class regiment of Jat Sikhs.^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5]^[6] This fact is not even disputed by any reliable source.

PS: Beware of the WP:MIRRORS that may have appeared between 26 November and today, as these bad edits have remained here during that period.

References

^ Sharma, Gautam (1990). Valour and Sacrifice: Famous Regiments of the Indian Army. Allied Publishers. p. 185. ISBN 978-81-7023-140-0. 36th Sikhs, which later became 4th Battalion of the Sikh Regiment, was the last to join the ranks of the elite in 1887 with a difference. It was a one-class Jat Sikh Battalion and within a decade, won for the regiment and the Indian Army immortal fame during the operations on the Samana ridge (1897). At that time the battalion was holding posts on the ridge. Those at Saragarhi, Gulistan and Fort Lockhart served as communication links.
^ Vohra, Pankaj (20 May 2017). "Book Review: The forgotten battle of Saragarhi brought to life by Amarinder Singh". The Sunday Guardian. The regiment was raised at its depot in Jalandhar, comprising Jat Sikhs from the Trans Sutluj, under a special Army Order dated 23 March 1887. Thereafter, it has remained in active service as first, the 36th Sikhs, then in the reorganisation of 1922 as the 4th battalion of the 11th Sikh regiment, and finally to its present designation in 1950, as the 4th Battalion of the Sikh Regiment.
^ Smyth, John (1970). The Valiant. A. R. Mowbray. p. 25. ISBN 978-0264645100. The 36th Sikhs, with a class (all Sikhs) composition of Jat Sikhs, was raised in the summer of 1887, as was their sister regiment, the 35th Sikhs. The 36th were formed by Colonel Jim Cooke and Captain H. R. Holmes.
^ "Sad we haven't made a film on Battle of Saragarhi: Kesari actor Akshay Kumar". The Indian Express. 14 March 2019. The British Indian contingent comprised 21 Jat Sikh soldiers of the 36th Sikhs who were stationed at an Army post and were attacked by 10,000 to 12,000 Afghans.
^ "UK to honour 21 Sikh soldiers with 9-ft bronze statute". The Sentinel. 10 November 2020. The 21 Jat Sikh soldiers of the 36th (Sikh) Regiment of Bengal Infantry was attacked by 10,000 to 12,000 Afghans ...
^ "Ahead of Akshay Kumar's Kesari, here's the true story of Battle of Saragarhi". Hindustan Times. 19 March 2019. 21 Jat Sikhs of 36 Sikh Regiment of the British Indian Army were stationed at Saragarhi as part of Tirah campaign.

- NitinMlk (talk) 21:49, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Protection needs to be increased

RegentsPark, this article needs extended-confirmed protection for at least a short span, as the current level of protection has failed to stop disruption. - NitinMlk (talk) 22:03, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done RegentsPark (comment) 13:29, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. - NitinMlk (talk) 08:12, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Uttar Singh to Uttam Singh

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The name of Sepoy Uttar Singh in the list of Sikh soldiers needs to be changed to Sepoy Uttam Singh. The references below all confirm that his name was Uttam. I also happen to know this as a descendant.

^[1] ^[2] ^[3] ^[4] ^[5] ^[6] ^[7] Shubha Dubba (talk) 20:37, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done Cinderella157 (talk) 23:18, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/26937/page/863
^ https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/26937/page/868
^ https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/26937/page/867
^ https://honourpoint.in/profile/sepoy-uttam-singh/
^ https://historica.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_of_Saragarhi
^ https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/amritsar/city-actor-s-big-break-with-kesari-745576
^ https://www.meemainseen.com/2020/05/saragarhi/ (the plaque written in Gurmukhi Punjabi text says Uttam)

[Sharma-1] Sharma, Gautam (1990). Valour and Sacrifice: Famous Regiments of the Indian Army. Allied Publishers. p. 185. ISBN 978-81-7023-140-0. 36th Sikhs, which later became 4th Battalion of the Sikh Regiment, was the last to join the ranks of the elite in 1887 with a difference. It was a one-class Jat Sikh Battalion and within a decade, won for the regiment and the Indian Army immortal fame during the operations on the Samana ridge (1897). At that time the battalion was holding posts on the ridge. Those at Saragarhi, Gulistan and Fort Lockhart served as communication links.

[Vohra-2] Vohra, Pankaj (20 May 2017). "Book Review: The forgotten battle of Saragarhi brought to life by Amarinder Singh". The Sunday Guardian. The regiment was raised at its depot in Jalandhar, comprising Jat Sikhs from the Trans Sutluj, under a special Army Order dated 23 March 1887. Thereafter, it has remained in active service as first, the 36th Sikhs, then in the reorganisation of 1922 as the 4th battalion of the 11th Sikh regiment, and finally to its present designation in 1950, as the 4th Battalion of the Sikh Regiment.

[Smyth-3] Smyth, John (1970). The Valiant. A. R. Mowbray. p. 25. ISBN 978-0264645100. The 36th Sikhs, with a class (all Sikhs) composition of Jat Sikhs, was raised in the summer of 1887, as was their sister regiment, the 35th Sikhs. The 36th were formed by Colonel Jim Cooke and Captain H. R. Holmes.

[IE-4] "Sad we haven't made a film on Battle of Saragarhi: Kesari actor Akshay Kumar". The Indian Express. 14 March 2019. The British Indian contingent comprised 21 Jat Sikh soldiers of the 36th Sikhs who were stationed at an Army post and were attacked by 10,000 to 12,000 Afghans.

[Sentinel-5] "UK to honour 21 Sikh soldiers with 9-ft bronze statute". The Sentinel. 10 November 2020. The 21 Jat Sikh soldiers of the 36th (Sikh) Regiment of Bengal Infantry was attacked by 10,000 to 12,000 Afghans ...

[HT-6] "Ahead of Akshay Kumar's Kesari, here's the true story of Battle of Saragarhi". Hindustan Times. 19 March 2019. 21 Jat Sikhs of 36 Sikh Regiment of the British Indian Army were stationed at Saragarhi as part of Tirah campaign.

[7] ttps://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/26937/page/863

[8] ttps://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/26937/page/868

[9] ttps://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/26937/page/867

[10] ttps://honourpoint.in/profile/sepoy-uttam-singh/

[11] ttps://historica.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_of_Saragarhi

[12] ttps://www.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/amritsar/city-actor-s-big-break-with-kesari-745576

[13] ttps://www.meemainseen.com/2020/05/saragarhi/ (the plaque written in Gurmukhi Punjabi text says Uttam)

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

[6]

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

[6]

[7]