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Sales Conflict

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Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


Sales

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Please do not post false information, they are not the second highest selling music act from Japan.

There are many Japanese musicians that have sold more records than Mr.Children.

I am using one of my favorites as an example, and giving an English reference dated back in 1989 when Hibari Misora died.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE7DA1E3EF936A15755C0A96F948260

She had sold around 70 million albums before the 1990's. I mean no offense to Mr.Children fans, but it is wrong to make such a statement. 220.253.16.5 (talk) 12:43, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • It is NOT false information and can even be confirmed by the reference link that was listed. If you have a problem with the way Oricon calculates sales, I suggest you write to them and complain. By deleting information like you just did, you are placing your own personal opinion, and are failing to see that, while you may disagree, the information is verifiable and correct according to Oricon. Wikipedia is for posting verifiable facts. Not inputing personal opinion on whether or not we believe something to be true or false. I'm sorry you feel like the article is making false statements, but it is not. Unless you can find another official list (from RIAJ for example) of the highest selling artists in Japan, I'm afraid we have to stay with the current official list which was released by Oricon, of which places Mr.Children as the second highest selling act. - Hedatari (talk) 15:50, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think some editors should learn to read Japanese before posting references. Michiya Mihasi is Japan's highest selling musician with an estimate of 160 million records sold. He became the first Japanese musician to break the 100 million sales mark in 1983. This is achievement is mentioned in his profile at Oricon.

Michiya Mihasi's artist page at Oricon. [1]

Many of the Oricon references have been misinterperted. 220.253.109.122 (talk) 09:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

What is Mr. Children?

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what is mr. children???

Ans. Mr.Children are so famous rock band in Japan. Almost all Japanese know them.

Because they are one of most successful band in Japan. --- 61.26.81.2 23:24 (UTC) August 11, 2005

Shouldn't this be at Mr.Children (no space). All of Mr.Children's official materials omit the space.--24.57.133.195 18:42, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Should we move it? mirageinred 03:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Important Titles Note for ALL artists (please copy this on other asian artist talk pages)

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I must note something very important for future editors of this page (also try to observe this for any non English speaking band or author... etc): If you see a single, album, dvd, concert, or book title that contains poor grammar, please consider that even though the English spelling or grammar may be incorrect, that it still may actually be the official title. If someone is searching for the single, and cannot find it the official way... then what good is wiki? Please do not tamper with titles unless you have found hard evidence that the title has been written incorrectly from the official spelling. also note, some OFFICIAL japanese titles are titled in all CAPS (or with stars and hearts or other "non-letter/number characters) this is NOT a mistake, please leave them like this. All one must do is observe the picture or written info of the single/album/book on the official page which is linked in the article at the bottom. Please help keep wikipedia encyclopedic and correct! Thank you. -- NatsukiGirl\talk 04:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, can you provide arguments on why should we break the convention? why not putting redirects in the all uppercase titles? The article text could use uppercase, but I don't see compelling arguments for changing the convention of the title. Also, for the "people wil lsearch for the upper case title", well, that's what the redirects solve. So far I haven't seen a discussion (perhaps you can point it to me) and since there's no consensus yet, I suggest not to change albums titles to uppercase (as in AROUND THE WORLD from the existing titles). -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 04:16, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was don't move as a matter of policy. We don't format titles funny just because. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 15:32, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

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Mr. Children → Mr.Children – {All official source omit the spacekojaxs 04:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)} copied from the entry on the WP:RM page[reply]

Survey

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Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Oppose: because they space oddly does not mean we must. Jonathunder 22:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

MR.CHILDREN_OFFICIAL_SITE_VERSION_1.0 MR.CHILDREN Official Site. www.mrchildren.jp/ - 4k - En caché - Páginas similares

Suzuki

Discussion

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This is not an arbitary spelling based on the whim of a publisist. Every Mr.Children album/single I own is without the space, none of their official material contains the space. The only time I see the space is in non-Japanese publications...kojaxs 09:08, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, I suggest we leave it where it is and indicate in the intro the unusual "spelling". --日本穣 Nihonjoe 20:46, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Recent edits

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Sorry if this sounds aggressive but I need to get this off my chest: Why are multiple Mr.Children items being deleted without discussing it? Firstly, Mr.Children is spelt WITHOUT the space in between the . and Children. Secondly the link to the disography page was changed when the original link leading to the discography page spelt the bands name correctly. I even have a whole bunch of magazine, CDs, and DVDs by the group to prove the correct spelling. Thirdly most of the biography on the group has been written by ME which I have gotten from various magazines interviews. The only way I can cite a source is by citing a magazine. Mr.Children rarely does online interviews and thus magazines I purchase are the only thing I have to go by. Is there a correct way I should source these magazines so that the credibility is not disputed? Should I put the issue and volume number also in addition to the year and magazine? Fourthly, this is just a general note, but I really wish people would DISCUSS things here FIRST before they randomly change things. Since I'm the one who is mostly doing this by myself it would help A LOT if someone would just say "Hey this needs to be changed" rather then just DELETING an entire area (like the 2007 news) and not giving me or anyone a chance to figure out a way to integrate it properly into the page. Again I am truly sorry if this sounds rude, but I'm always getting asked by people to work on the Mr.Children wiki here and everytime I try to, people start deleting and changing things without even discussing it. ikuni-web 19:32, 12 June 2007

May I direct your attention towards WP:MOS-TM and WP:V/WP:RS/WP:BLP? Wikipedia articles should not emulate eccentric typesetting used in trademarks and their content must be verifiable through reliable sources, especially when dealing with biographies of living people. Uncited information may be removed by any editor at any time. - Cyrus XIII 23:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're totally confussing me. How do you want me to PROVE the correct way to spell their name? Just look at their official websites. It states it. I know the quality of this Mr.Children wiki needs work, which is why I had that original tab at the top, saying it was still being worked on, because it is. All the other wiki on Japanese aritsts like Koda Kumi and Amuro Namie, have issues but people don't just start deleting stuff. They discuss it first. I mean you deleted the fansites, but other wiki pages to other Japanese aritsts here link to fansites so why is it wrong for this one to? You're just deleting stuff without even trying to explain things or helping out in any way other then to keep saying I'm wrong. If I'm messing something up I would really like you to direct me to a Japanese artist wiki that does things correctly so that I can learn how to do this properly rather then directing me to WP:MOS-TM and WP:V/WP:RS/WP:BLP which honestly isn't helping me in any way. - ikuni-web 00:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd also like to add you deleted their ENITRE discography without at least fixing it. Not to mention there was NO reason to delete it like that. The least you could have done if you're so amped to continue to mispell Mr.Children to Mr. Children is place the discography information in that article box so that at least other people can still view it while things are being figured out on this end. Again you ask for sources, I'm telling you the source on how to spell the bands name properly can be found at their own record label site: http://www.toysfactory.co.jp/mrchildren/ which clearly shows it being spelt Mr.Children and not Mr. Children ikuni-web 00:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No one is demanding sources for the official typeset, the result of the recent move discussion simply was not to emulate the stylized spacing. What references are needed for is pretty much all the content of the History section and probably rare/out-of-print releases that have been removed from the discography page for the time being. Regarding the practice of linking to lots of fansites and other recurring issues: Wikipedia is a user-edited encyclopedia so a lot of articles won't be up to its own standards at any given time. If you would like to become more familiar with these standards and how to apply them, read through the guidelines and policies I have already provided here and in my edit summaries. If you would like examples, check out a few good/featured articles. - Cyrus XIII 04:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Other editors have been through here and none have had the problems with this wiki like you have. From what I was able to read from the wiki standards it said "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article" can be listed. And the links listed were those. None of them were BS links and even though yes, there were non-English links, which the wiki said to try not use in the English wiki, they were still relevent as they had the latest news/releases on the group. So I still don't understand the issue with that still. I do understand the importance of reference because no one wants to read false information, but like I said other editors have been through here. And things like their demo work and indie work are common knowledge and can be found in any Japanese Mr.Children website. I thought you didn't have to source commone knowledge. Oh well. I had originally thought this to be a bad idea for me to do, and I guess I was right. Hopefully someone else will work on the Mr.Children wiki now, because I can tell any future edits I make will be be soley judge by you and probably deleted since it would most likely not be up to correct standards. --Ikuni-web 10:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cyrus if you don't know about the Mr.Children history, please don't try to edit verificable information, the indie information of the band can be founded in page like porudamu blog's and page like Mr.Children's Worlds and a LOT OF Japanese Fan Sites, if you don't know about the band, easily, DON'T EDIT THE ARTICLE (not the content, of course if you wish to edit the style, you're welcome), because:

  • It's really hard to find information about the band and make story lines, of course you can find information about japanese bandas like Laruku, Dir en Grey and other famous overseas bands, yep is easily but not about Mr.Children, Mr.Children isn't.
  • The main editors (Ikuni, Katto, Mr_Children and me, sometimes) are long time fans about the band, so we can give trustable and miselaneous info about the band, users like Ikuni have websites about the band and obtain information from diferent sources, and users like me read japanese source sites about the band, so you can't edit them and reduce the info collected in them, because "you are cleaning the pointless information of them", this is a close-minded actitude...
  • The title of the band is Mr.Children, even if the english rules puts the article like Mr. Children we need to remarke the article is called Mr.Children (in the spanish Wikipedia i putted the Template Wrong Writted Name (is a average translation, don't take so serious)), also this was discutted so, you can seen japanese fans and official pages about theband and you will find the name as is as: Mr.Children, about the name of the singles, albums, etc, the Japanese artist are very respectfull about the names, because a songs can be called with the same characters and be writted and understanded differently. Houki Boshi can be writted like ほうきぼしor 箒星. So if you don't know this mispellings about the Japanese Music, please avoit to edit them.

Of course you can asume is a GNU Document and blah, blah, blah... but still is pointless, please don't be rude and a "human-bot". If you make another edition of the article without a good reason and apelating to the rules of Wiki (and saying this is good for the clean and understand of the article for blah, blah, blah). I will request your suspension or ban, because this act is like a vandalism (an "altruism" vandalism, but vandalism at least). And also request the protection to the article, Greetings. -Suzuki 20:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let me explain it once more: Information that is not backed up by reliable sources may be removed by any editor at any time (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Verifiability). This goes double for articles of biographical nature (see Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons). Fan sites are not reliable sources, neither are verdicts by long-time fans. Being not personally invested into a given subject also does not bar me from editing its article, though by now, some of the editors you mentioned might want to ask themselves whether they can still guarantee the neutrality of their contributions and that they are not too possessive of this and its related pages (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:Ownership of articles). I'd wish you luck with trying to get me "suspended" or "banned" for applying one of this project's most fundamental principles, but really, this is just ridiculous, if not downright hostile (see Wikipedia:Civility). - Cyrus XIII 21:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And Official Websites and Label Pages are non copyrighted Sources?, If you say yes, the fanpages has the same info about the band (with the difference of more comments and updated info), so because is an extended information about the official info, is a valid source. If you say yes, i will make changes in some articles like the Dir en Grey article beause violates the non-copyrighted texts for Wikipedia (and of course i will can merge to the stub range, because the most info of them are copyrightable). And don't comes with a "i'm reffuges in the Wiki's Politics" posture, this is a pedant acttitude. --Suzuki 21:47, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Could you rephrase your last message, minus the threat of retaliation edits and the remark about supposed attitudes? I'm having trouble to understand what you are getting at. - Cyrus XIII 21:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

After New Editor

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Forget it, for everybody. Underconstruction Template putted, respect it and don't make important changes to the article. --Suzuki 22:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC) Then why don't you acknowledge "Mr.Children" instead of "Mr. Children" in the first place? What about their figures sales? They are taken from the Oricon figures, which is the Japanese equivalent of the RIAA. What could be more reliable? Please go on a look-out for some information & you'll see how difficult it is to find online information from them (given the fact that you DO manage to find some content).[reply]

Wrong, the Oricon is the equivalent of the Billboard, isn't of the RIAJ. Check the Oricon Article, also the Oricon takes the estadistics and release without copyrights in their websites--Suzuki 22:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My bad, I did mix the names. Anyway the band's name has been fixed. But the absence of the sales figures is very awkward.

Don't worry, and one more thing, please if you found inconssistence of the article please fix it, because i isn't a native english speaker =/-Suzuki 22:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you would like to re-introduce previously removed material into the article and have a source for it which satisfies WP:RS, go ahead. Just follow the instructions provided by WP:CITE, in order to have your citations recognized as such and keep in mind that fan sites do not constitute reliable sources. Also, citing sources for some content does enable you to add still uncited content along with it and of course, the Wikipedia Manual of Style and the guidelines of WikiProject Music still apply in terms of formatting, so no all-uppercase album titles and the likes. Avoid redundancy; there is no point in including lists of the band's works here with a separate discography page already in place. - Cyrus XIII 22:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article sources now is quoted to Theppn and mr.children.jp, so i quoting GNU Text and Official Sources (trustable info), i hope this info wasn't be removed and the discography info will be putted in a extense article, so keep this resume in this article, because Mr.Children's Discography is very extend (more than 40th CDs)--Suzuki 23:00, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Theppn is a user-edited fan site and does not satisfy WP:RS. You cannot use it to reference information on Wikipedia. - Cyrus XIII 23:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
According to GFDL Licence, if you copy a GNU Text, the original licence is still working of the copied text, so the workers of the original text still gives the GNU Licence to the text, also Theppn is a Enclyclopedic japanese pop music, isn't a fan page, and the info is putted for workers arround the world, like Wikipedia. About the names, the characters in japanese are translated to english, so i don't see problems about the Manual of Style. --Suzuki 23:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This hasn't got anything to do with licensing. Anyone can create an account at Theppn and make a few changes - just like this. That's user-edited/self-published content and of no use for us. Also, see WP:MOS-JP#Capitalization of words in Roman script for titles like HOME/Home. - Cyrus XIII 23:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The info posted in Theppn contains part of the english translation of the booklet Mr.Children 1992-2000 maded by Kodomo. I will post it like a ref in the Theppn article.--Suzuki 23:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(deindet) This does not change the fact that you cannot use Theppn to reference information on Wikipedia. If you would like to cite the booklet, do that but in a way that makes it perfectly clear what bits of information are to be backed up by it by that particular source. - Cyrus XIII 00:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed the 1989-1995 Bio, added reference from JACOMPA, mrchildren.jp and Wikipedia articles for Mr.Children, and Shounan Baku Soukozu. (Please, check the mispellings and fixit, because i'm translating the text from Spanish and Japanese)--Suzuki 17:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What makes you think that other Wikipedia articles are any better suited as a source than Theppn? - Cyrus XIII 18:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reasons?

  • First, the official info is posted in japanese (not english for the overseas fans), so in Wikipedia the translations from foreigener Wikipedias is alowed, so considering the constant checking of the main editors of this article (And this guys are alrready very elitist in the information), and considering the constant promoting (in the english wikipedia we can site some pages, but in Japan the information of the band is very promoted in the streets, TV, Radio, Websites, Fansites (i know, the fansites is a "untrustable" source, but this sites puts in text all information about the band), etc). I don't know the case in anoher bands, but in Mr.Children that is the case. (BTW, The Japanese Page is Citted for the Tie-Ups of Mr.Children, you can easily find the article and websites relacionated with this in the Japanese Wiki).
  • Second, Are you trying to say who the English Wikipedia is the only Truth Source?. Please, in this case the Japanese Wikipedia are most trustable than another languages. Ignoring the source references, the information of the band is the same of the official page, and extended with the live information with the people attending events and lives. (if you think everybody are lying)We know, Wiki isn't a fansite, but this sites provides addicional information about the facts.

I don't know if you can read Japanese, if you can, read it and see the info, is very exactly in the timeline and events succed to the band. And of course i will put references from the official page mixing the info of this with the jp.wiki info. Greetings! =) --Suzuki 18:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're still wrong. Wikipedia, regardless of the language it is in, consists of user-edited content, that can be changed and potentially falsified by just about anyone. Not to mention that the Japanese article about the band in question does not offer a single source to hold its own ground. Have you actually read Wikipedia:Reliable sources? - Cyrus XIII 18:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The history of Mr.Children can be found in their duel BEST OF album's titled 'Mr.Children 1992-1995' and 'Mr.Children 1996-2000'. Both albums came with a history booklet in addition to the actual album. The material that was posted here can be found in both history books. The 1992-1995 booklet also contained information about their pre-1992 when they were called THE WALLS and also about their high school days. All information that fan sites based their information off of are these two booklets the group wrote. So most, if not all, credit will need to be given to those two booklets in the albums. --24.233.167.16 19:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also like to add that the information that is posted at Theppn was actually stolen from the English fansite 'Everything'. Whether or not Theppn got permission is another story, but that information was translated by the owner of that site from the history booklets I talked about above, so if you do decide to use 'Everything's' translation of the booklets, you need to credit the Mr.Children booklets for the original information and you will also need to make a note that let's readers know it was translated by the owner of that site into English. Also material from self-published sources and sources of questionable reliability may be used in articles about themselves, so long as it is not relevant to their notability, it is not not contentious, it is not unduly self-serving, it does not involve claims about third parties, it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject, and there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it. You can read more here: WP:VERIFY --24.233.167.16 20:32, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discography

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Something needs to be done about the discography. It can't be listed both in the main Mr.Children article and also in their own discography page, but I'm afraid to touch that given the unfortunate incidents that have happened with it prior to this writing. What I think would be a good idea is, yes I know I shouldn't reference other wiki's, but I like how other artist wiki's will list only the albums in the main article (like a brief overview of the albums chart positions), and then if the readers want more information they can click into the artists discography. That way someone can get a good overview of their works without have to scroll through their discography page. Just an idea, but like I said, I'm afraid to touch it. Maybe someone else out there, who has the readers best interest at heart, can work on that. --24.233.167.16 18:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think a table with the chart states and the type of the album is the best option.--Suzuki 17:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Mr childrenjacompa.jpg

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