Talk:Lucrezia Borgia

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Affair with Perotto

The account of Lucrezia's pregnancy in this article is contradictory. Was the child the messenger's, or her brother Cesare's? If there is no historical consensus on this, then that needs to be explicitly stated. This isn't my field by any means, so is there someone out there who can fix this? Gwimpey 21:36, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)

It's worse than that: in one sentence, it unequivocally states that she was pregnant when her marriage was annulled for nonconsummation, and then later states that it's unclear she was the mother (yetivelorry@yahoo.com, July 11, 2007).

It's worse than THAT; there is reasonable evidence that the Roman Infant was NOT Lucrezia's child at all. The pope himself stated in a secret Papal Bull that it was his child with his mistress, which would have been Guillia, though that's not stated. The fact that he was the pope at the time would have been scandalous enough to keep the issue somewhat nebulous, which is how it became attributed to Lucrezia. I think a LOT of this article is POV, because it doesn't give any of the OTHER information, that contradicts some of the assertions. It's quite possible that, while Lucrezia was PRESENT at some truly reprehensible actions of her brothers and father, she herself was by an large fairly exemplary for her time in her behavior. Bill Ward 01:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

What the hell does this sentence have to do with the subject? " In February 1498 the bodies of a servant, Pedro Calderon, and a maid, Pantasilea, were found in the Tiber. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.59.73.103 (talk) 00:00, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Marriage to Alfonso V?

Alfonso V of Aragon died in 1458, more than 20 years before Lucrezia's birthdate (as listed in this article). Either someone's dates are extremely inaccurate, or this marriage did not take place. Could someone correct this, please?

Actually, his name his Alfonso of Aragon, illegitimate son to Alfonso II of Aragaon, king of Naples. He was never crowned and never ruled any country. I think the "V" is only a mistake.

Briana Banks?

In the reference to Lucrezia's marriage to Giovanni Sforza, it is mentioned that the "wedding was a scandalous event due to... Sforza [making love to] the pornstar of the time Briana Banks." Was there really a Briana Banks in the 15th century? It's more likely someone just wanted to sneak in the name of a contemporary porn starlet.

Pantaloons?

but she loved lighting fireworks and sticking them down Cesare Borgia's pantaloons

i'm going to go out on a limb here, but i'm guessing that this is just someone having fun with wikipedia. i can't find any references to this anywhere. should probably be removed

Mario Puzo

I think this article is VERY heavily influenced by Mario Puzo's "The Family" which is a complete work of historical fiction. I mean, all this talk about subplots and whatnot sure sounds very literary and not exactly like it came from some authentic historical accounts.

Lucrezia's Chrildren

Ercole II d'Este, Duke of Ferrara (April 5, 1508 - October 3, 1559). Ippolito II d'Este (August 25, 1508 - December 1, 1572). Archbishop of Milan and later Cardinal.

Given the close birthdates one of them must be wrong. Does anyone know the correct information?

Lucrezia's last child Isabella Maria has two death dates in this article. It is stated that she lived until 1521, and then later, that she died the same day she was born. Has anyone got sources for this? geeoharee (talk) 22:58, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Sources regarding her last child are somewhat contradictory. Some mention the daughter was sickly and was baptized immediately; the one I just added, a 19th-century historian, says she was born dead. Less reliable sources such as the family tree in the external links say she died the day she was born. I couldn't find a source for the supposed death in 1521 and have removed that date. Huon (talk) 08:50, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Lucrezia's complicity in her father's politics

For an alternative point of view, showing Lucrezia as not active or complicit in her father's political activities, see Maria Bellonci's study (Lucrezia Borgia: La sua vita e i suoi tempi, Milan, 1939). She is depicted rather as a pawn in his wranglings. One should also consider how her earlier life is viewed in relation to its end, as a nun of the tertiary order in the Franciscan convent of Ferrara. The negative view of her may (though no study has been carried out) have its roots in anti-Borgia propaganda of the time.

Borgia in Blackadder

Lucrezia is mentioned in the first episode of Blackadder Goes Forth. When Private Baldrick suggests a cunning plan to avoid going over the top by cooking the High Command a meal, Leftenant George says it's a great idea, to which Captain Blackadder responds 'Or alternatively, the biggest mass-poisoning since Lucrezia Borgia invited 200 of her closest friends over for a cheese and anthrax party!'

*5*00 friends, *wine* and anthrax. But close enough 172.189.80.151 23:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

To add-- Witchblade appearance.

Lucrezia Borgia was also featured in an episode ("Ubique" series finale) of Witchblade. She was played by Kate Levering.

Legends/Rumors

I deleted the unsourced legends and rumors, they aren't verifiable and don't seem to present an unbiased view of Borgia. For example, contending that she poisoned people at parties with a hollow ring...unless you have some way of verifying that, it doesn't deserve to be in, even if it is labeled a legend. Epsoul 05:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

This legend is extremely famous (whether it's true or not) and certainly should be in the article. It's discussed at length in Rafael Sabatini's biography of Cesare Borgia [1] linked from Cesare's article. 67.117.130.181 04:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I find it ridculous that there's no mention of poisoning - it's the only reason most people will have heard of her and is referenced in countless works (see Blackadder quote above)! Cavie78 11:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Someone familiar with the period might like to work in some of the new historical research:

• "Renaissance Capitalist: New Research Answers Mystery About Illegitimate Daughter Of Pope", ScienceDaily, 2009-01-10 {{citation}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)
• Ghirardo; et al. (2008), "Lucrezia Borgia as Entrepreneur", Renaissance Quarterly, 61 (1), doi:10.1353/ren.2008.0029 {{citation}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |last= (help)

(discovered through Explorator 11.38) AdamFunk (talk) 15:45, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Name

If her name is Lucrezia, why does her gravestone say LVCRETIE which would give a nominative Lucretia? --Nantonos 11:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Because it's the Italian version, not the English version of the name, and LVCRETIE would be the Latin. --RB3 18:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Cesare's "syphilis"

Is there any source for the comment about Cesare having syphilis? It's not mentioned on his page, and I find it a bit hard to believe that he recovered from syphilis at that period in history. Could it be meant to be smallpox? Or completely made up? -- RB3 18:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I just finished Sarah Bradford's extensive biography on LB. It mentions cases of syphillis in both Cesare and AlexanderVI. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.68.180 (talk) 03:26, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Novels

Lucrezia appears in the role of the witch in Mirror Mirror by Gregory Maguire, which is a retelling of Snow White based in 16th century Italy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.190.170.0 (talk) 17:00, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Lucrezia and Cesare Borgia also appear in the novel City of God by Cecelia Holland

References

I notice that the source citations in this article are not formatted according to the style recommendations in the WP Manual of Style; I'm willing to work on cleaning them up. Are there any objections to the use of templates for this? And if templates are acceptable to the interested editors here, which family of citation templates are preferred, {{Citation}} or "Cite xxx" (e.g. {{Cite book}}) ? Or is there any preference? --LBourne (talk) 23:21, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Possible portrait found

I discovered this article today | Infamous Renaissance woman subject of mystery portrait which probably deserves inclusion or linking and further comment --Matt (talk) 03:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC) Already done —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.75.186.187 (talk) 22:47, 25 November 2008 (UTC) I have added the voice of a critic to that claim. HollyML14 (talk) 07:07, 29 November 2008 (UTC) Someone added to the caption of this new portrait that she died from a vampire bite. That's rubbish, it is well known that she died after giving birth to her last child. Hence, that statement should be removed. I noted that a similar statement was added to Giuliano de' Medici (1453-1478)'s page by the same user. HollyML14 (talk) 07:20, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I read the press release of the National Gallery of Victoria NGV about the new discovery. It says that the painting was made between 1515 and 1519 (Lucrezia died that year). Lucrezia was born in 1480, hence she would have been 35 to 39 years old when the painting was produced. I wonder how the "Portrait of a Youth", its former title, could morph into an at least 35 year-old woman. Considering that people at that time were living under much harsher conditions than today and she had already given birth to 7 children, I do not see a 35 year-old woman, but more like a 25 year-old. It appears the researcher at the NGV has interpreted every bit of detail in this painting except for the face. I wonder what portrait paintings are about if not the face. I believe the NGV has produced a publicity stunt here and their "research" will not hold up to scrutiny. Maybe Wikipedians should be more cautious when including such news into an article. HollyML14 (talk) 10:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I would agree wholeheartedly with HollyML14. The justifications behind the indentification are pretty flimsy, and in addition the painting looks NOTHING like any other renditions of LB. Jumpinggaloshes (talk) 21:13, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with this analysis, and until the NGV has been disproved, I find it disconcerting that the Dossi portrait of Lucrezia is attributed to his brother, as well as being touted as a likeness of Renee of France. You ask if a portrait is not about a face, then what purpose does it serve? No portraiture of Renee looks anything like this painting, sorry. Talk about errors in hair color? As for how would it be possible for a 39 year old Lucrezia (and btw, Raphael Sabatini contends in his life of Cesare Borgia that Vatican documents exist establishing Lucrezia's date of birth as April 19, 1479) to become a teenage boy, consider this statement found on the Wiki Cesare Borgia page:

"Cesare was also father to at least 11 illegitimate children, among them Girolamo Borgia, who married Isabella Contessa di Carpi, and Lucrezia Borgia, who, after Cesare's death, was moved to Ferrara to the court of her aunt, Lucrezia Borgia."

With that information in hand, think about the allegory of the dagger in the Dossi portrait as pertaining to the name Lucrezia of Roman legend, and you might be able to ascertain how another Lucrezia, a neice, not daughter-in-law, could prove model for this work. Also, remember that Dosso Dossi painted an Aeneas mythological scene in 1524, and the text/inscription in the "Youth" is said to be taken from Virgil's "Aeneid." Philon5 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Philon5 (talk • contribs) 17:17, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

The arguments in favour of this being Lucrezia Borgia are far more convincing than the counterargument, which has only been put forward by a self-styled amateur art detective whose career rests on publishing books with radical re-interpretations of the 'conventional wisdom'. I suggest actually reading the NGV website information on the subject and not simply relyong in the news stories. But a few points: -The only known oval Renaissance portraits are by Dosso Dossi and his brother at the d'Este court of Ferrara between 1515-1520. -The existing portraits said to be Lucrezia Borgia are done so on flimsy evidence, the NGV portrait cannot be dismissed on that basis. -The only other CONFIRMED portraits of LB are a series of medals, the portraits of which do bear a strong resemblence to the NGV portrait -The use of a dagger to pun the name Lucrezia is alsohighly suggestive, only women of exceptionally high status were given portraits and the idea that it was some virtually unknown, unimportant Lucrezia bastard of Cesare is laughable. -No reputable experts have come forward to question the identification which was the work of four years study by the painting conservator. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Renaissancechap (talk • contribs) 03:39, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Hatnote Buffalo Bill

Does this article really need a hatnote about the nickname for Buffalo Bill's gun? It's such an obscure fact that it's not even mentioned in Bill's article; why should it be mentioned here, at the top of the article? I suggest to remove it. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:59, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Grammatical babble

"Lucrezia Borgia was born at Subiaco, near Rome. Her mother was Giovanna de Candia, Countess of Cattanei of the House of Candia, better known to history as Vannozza dei Cattanei; and she was one of the many mistresses of Rodrigo Borgia, Lucrezia's father."

Apart from the odd semi-colon use, to whom does "she" refer? The sentence structure seems to imply that "she" refers to "her"; in other words to Lucrezia. I'm no historian, but this cannot be right, since it would mean that L was one of her father's mistresses (maybe not so odd for the Borgias). I think that the sentence should read something like: "Her mother was Giovanna de Candia, Countess of Cattanei of the House of Candia, one of the many mistresses of Lucrezia's father Rodrigo Borgia, and better known as Vannozza dei Cattanei." If I am wrong about the facts, please revert. Theeurocrat (talk) 16:25, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism

This article has been vandalized big time, but I'm not Wikisavvy enough to undo it all. Examples include, "By the time Lucrezia was 3, she had been betrothed twice, but her ferret called off both engagements." and "Alexander asked Giovanni's uncle, Cardinal of the cantaloupes, to persuade Giovanni to agree to a divorce." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.195.73.59 (talk) 02:21, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. It's been reverted to a previous version before the vandalism. Truthkeeper (talk) 02:46, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Marriage to Alfonso of Aragon

I removed this information from the article page. It was completely unsourced, and allegations like "Cesare Borgia had his servants strangle Alfonso" are damaging if unproven.

Second marriage: Alfonso of Aragon (Duke of Bisceglie)

At his first meeting with Alfonso, before the marriage took place, Cesare was very impressed by his good looks and nature but this soon changed to jealousy and hatred. It was said that Cesare did not like Alfonso because Lucrezia was very happy with him and had, since her marriage to him, stopped giving Cesare as much attention; therefore Cesare believed Alfonso had usurped his place in his sister's affections. Also, Cesare himself had a bout of syphilis and many scars remained on his face, even after recovery. This made him very conscious of his appearance, and so he started wearing masks and dressing in black. His condition is said to have made him hate Alfonso of Aragon all the more, and once when the Prince was visiting them in Rome, Cesare's men attacked him during the night. To retaliate, Alfonso's men shot arrows at Cesare one day while he strolled in the garden. This infuriated Cesare, and he had his servant(s) strangle Alfonso while in the recovery room. Lucrezia and Alfonso had only one child, Rodrigo, who predeceased his mother in August 1512 at the age of 12.

Lazr75 (talk) 18:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Rather than just remove the entire section (leaving the article without ANY information about Lucrezia's second marriage) I have thrown a blurb in with what I think is pretty widely-accepted informaton. I will work on citations for the rest later.

MaxusDarte (talk) 18:35, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Phonetic transcription of the name

As the transcription is phonemic, aren't forward slashes more appropriate around it than square brackets? Also Italian /ts/ is self-geminating, so it should be /lu'krɛttsja/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.22.97.90 (talk) 14:09, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Cast as femme fatale by Machiavelli?

The lede currently says that Machiavelli wrote about the Borgias and then immediately adds that she was "cast as a femme fatale." This implies that Machiavelli cast her as a femme fatale. This looks misleading, because I remember nothing about Lucrezia in The Prince, and a search of the fulltext of the book online reveals no mention of her name. I suppose maybe Machiavelli might have mentioned her under some odd circumlocution like "Cesare's sister," but unless that can be proven, I think the lede should say clearly that Machiavelli never talks about her. Pirate Dan (talk) 15:12, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. Since The Prince (complete translated text here) is not mentioned in the body of the article, it should not be mentioned in the lead. I have removed it. If someone wants to make the connection between the two, in perhaps the Rumor section, then they could put it back. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 20:23, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement removed

I cannot find reliable sources for the following statement and therefore have removed it: "She is a collateral relative of most of the royal families of modern Europe including that of the United Kingdom. Through her granddaughter Anna d'Este, Duchess of Guise and later Duchess of Nemours, Lucrezia is the ancestress of Juan Carlos I of Spain; Philippe of Belgium; Henri, Grand Duke of Luxembourg; as well as the Count of Paris and the claimants to the Thrones of Portugal, Austria, Bavaria, Brazil, Parma, Saxony, and the Two Sicilies." MurielMary (talk) 09:20, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

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