Talk:Senryū

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I am planning on making some additions to this senryu page, such as explaning where the word senryu came from and some of the history of senryu. While I'm thinking of what I want to add, and how I want to word it, I want to make a suggestion. I think the entire second paragraph ("Much modern haiku...") should be removed from the senryu entry. It really doesn't say a whole lot about senryu, while at the same time denigrating the more conservative 5-7-5 English-language "Yuki Teikei" style of haiku. I will concede that 5-7-5 haiku written by beginners often seem very wordy and are marred by obvious filler words, but when a 5-7-5 haiku has been written by a knowledgeable haiku poet, that is no longer true. Thus it violates the NPOV principle for the Wikipedia.

gK 9 Oct 2004 6:22 AM PST

I wouldn't just remove that paragraph outright. Its important point, that English (and, from what I understand, Japanese as well) poets frequently no longer adhere strictly to the 5-7-5 rule, instead preferring a "one deep breath" rule, is true and should certainly be mentioned. I think it would be NPOV to say what you just said above: that the 5-7-5 rule may be a distraction for beginners, but that an experienced poet will know how to work with it.

I do think that the first sentence of that paragraph is a little confused. It might be better to say that modern non-Japanese poets, either intentionally or due to ignorance, abandon some of the traditional rules of haiku, instead writing a poem that's closer to a senryu. —Triskaideka 15:03, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't think filler words are a problem. The idea is for you to think about an image or a situation that isn't temporal or that recurs for eight seconds. I hav a haiku that could simply be trimmed--given an early period--at thirteen syllables to mean the same thing (the tune doesn't end naturally at 13, though). It might be worth working out which rules are the most difficult. I think it's the one about indicating the season, but exactly seventeen is naturally difficult, too. So, perhaps what I should do is write *anything* about this season, and then maybe after ten tries I'll just happen upon something that's exactly seventeen.

Senryu, due to their dark and introspective side I think are naturally going to be less popular than haiku; they hav fewer standards, so they're more temporal. BrewJay (talk) 18:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Moved from article, hokku vs haiku

The content below should be properly integrated into the article. I've also taken the liberty of reverting the hokku-into-haiku thing, please see Talk:Haiku for discussion. Jpatokal 03:23, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Additional History

Long before the proto-haiku and proto-senryu parted ways, the world of early haikai (shoki-hakkai) had room for both. In the Enoko collection (1633), we find poems on nature and poems that are vulgar if not obscene. As senryu began to coalesce into a separate genre (this before the first Mr. Senryu began his above-noted series of anthologies), some characteristics which differentiate it from hokku became clear:

1) There is a tendency to create and play with stereotypes, which might be seen as the senryu equivalent of the kigo, or seasonal theme in hokku, though the gross content of the senryu leads one to think of the way black humor in the USA. The presence of such themes allows the poets to compete if it were to add novel twists and this contributes to reader enjoyment. Once themes are well developed, many senryu are opaque to the outsider who might not know that, say, a beautiful wife steeping herbal medicine that doesn't work (ii nyoubo kikanu kusuri o senjiteru) describes a man with jinkyo, a wasting disease where the sufferer has trouble rising from bed while his singular part insists upon standing and spending his limited energy (no, we are not talking about an aphrodisiac, but, if anything, the opposite.). We also might not have any idea why a beautiful wife is throwing sand at her husband's corpse (It would be magic to get said semper paratus partus to bend) according to another senryu.

2) The third-person (vs modern haiku, which tends to be first-person) or, less commonly a general perspective similar to the English "you" when "you" means no one in particular ("one" sounds too formal) is common. For someone versed in old senryu, the presence of the "I," which personalizes the poem and contradicts 1) above, creates something altogether different, which in many cases might better be called a haiku. To this (old-fashioned) writer, modern senryu that use the first-person might better be called modern poems in 5-7-5.

3) Senryu in its mid-18-early 19c heyday included material that equals the dirty-dozens or the most obscene of Martial's Epigrams. As Blyth put it (and both his books of senryu are recommended), the best senryu would not make it past the censor. At this time (2005), we have no official censor for the printed word, but, as far as I know, none of this XXX stuff has been translated (Even Makoto Ueda's fine introduction to senryu shortchanges us in that respect.) It will before 2008: Look out for THE MULLET IN THE MAID.

4) Because senryu, as all humor, thumbs its nose at power, it includes poems that might be described as the op-ed cartoon in words. This is rare, though not completely absent, in haiku.

5) Today, the personal life of the poet – family or work – plays a far larger role in senryu than it once did. The topical scope is so broad there is less stereotype. However, because Japanese can use active verbs without specifying the subject/person, it is possible to be personal and direct yet universal.

6) There is not always a difference, in modern writing, between senryu and haiku. As is the case for music, where the singer claims that whatever he sings is enka, or country, because he is an enka-singer or country singer, there are poems found in collections of senryu that would not be questioned as bona fide haiku if they were found in a collection of poems by a known haijin (haiku poet) and poems in collections of haiku that would fit right into a collection of senryu.

Case by case explanations of why a particular ku is a haiku or senryu can be helpful. You might search inside of Fly-ku! and/or Rise, Ye Sea Slugs! (both books by robin d. gill) at Google Print or Amazon for "senry" (the "u" has a mark over it that might not work for a search).

Deep Breath

lol is "one deep breath" a wise rule I wonder. As a drama student I was taught to recite entire sonnets in a single breath

I agree. No. If I speak softly ...many more syllables than seventeen. If I sing out, though...eight seconds. BrewJay (talk) 18:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Zappai

Zappai≠Senryū and so the current Zappai -> Senryū redirect is inappropriate. I propose to create a Zappai stub. Any help in expanding it appreciated. Meanwhile any comments/objections? --Yumegusa (talk) 11:43, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Is it necessary to include the literal translation of Senryu?

While it's true that Senryu/川柳 literally translates to "River Willow", I worry that it is misleading to tell readers that. Senryu is derived from a name, not a reference to the poetry style (unlike, say, Haiku/俳句). OK to delete? OsFish (talk) 03:33, 1 March 2021 (UTC)