Talk:Moshe Dayan

No controversy section?

I doubt he is without controversy considering he is considered by some historians as a possible war criminal for his killing of civilians in Lydda in 1948. I thought democracies didn't have to cover the truth...huh? He seems to be quite the little fascist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.78.183.102 (talk) 12:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Quote

That quote of Dayan about "80% of the Clashes", Published 21 years AFTER the fact, and Comspicuously 1 year after Dayan's Death, by Rami Tal, is Certainly Suspect and probably Should NOT be here. It does not meet the standard for verifiable.

I see we're back to editing-by-arafat, as Wiki moves ever more arabist. EVERY entry re Israel becomes more anti, and every entry re Islam becomes more Rosy and Bleached.

abu afak (including the entry for my handle, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.66.225.227 (talk) 21:43, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Four years later, as Prime Minister Menachem Begin's foreign minister, he was instrumental in drawing up the Camp David Accords, a peace agreement with Egypt. Angered by Begin's policy of establishing Israeli settlements in the West Bank area, still legally part of Jordan, he resigned in 1979. In 1981 he formed a new party, Telem, which advocated unilateral disengagement from the territories occupied in the 1967 war, but he died shortly thereafter, on Oct. 16, 1981, in Tel Aviv.

The above paragraph is an exact duplicate of part of this text, which itself claims to be "Excerpted from Compton’s Interactive Encyclopedia Copyright © 1994, 1995 Compton’s NewMedia, Inc." Is this article original material that we can legally use here? --Brion 01:53 Sep 25, 2002 (UTC)

I've just finished an article on Yael Dayan. --Fernando Rizo

--- Something should be add about his role in the Sinay War, probably his geatest achievement!!!

Possible mix up "His parents were Shmuel and Devorah who were Jewish immigrants from Russia"

and when I look at Sharon's bio "Sharon was born Ariel Scheinermann to Shmuel and Dvora (formerly Vera)"

Both had parent with almost the same first names coming from Russia!

Trying to disambiguate Vatican

in the phrase "what is this Vatican?"... I don't know which meaning to link it to. Can anyone who understands the context please update the link? Thanks ~ Veledan | Talk | c. 23:13, 2 August 2005 (UTC) disambiguation link repair (You can help!)

• Link removed until/unless someone comes back with a better idea. I think Vatican is being used purely figuratively and that linking to any specific meaning is unhelpful; but then so is linking to the dab page ~ Veledan | Talk | c. 22:42, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Mow-shay

How is his name pronounced in English? "Mosh", "Mosh-ee", "Mow-she"? "Mow-see"? I have always mentally read it as "Moshy", but given that it's related to Moses I'm confused. Also, is it "Diane" or "Day-anne"?

In English it is most commonly pronounced "Mo Shuh Dy Anne"

It’s pronounced Mo (rhymes with “go”) sheh (rhymes with first syllable of “level”) Da (rhymes with “spa”) yan (rhymes with “flan”).

"Moshe" is usually /'mɒʃə/ in English, but Americans seem to say /'moʊʃeɪ/ with diphthongs. — Chameleon 03:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

As a native hebrew speaker he would have pronounced it more like /'mɒʃə/ than the American way. — Theperplexedinquestion 11:07 (GMT)

Quote attributed to Moshe Dayan

I heard several people use a quote that they contribute to Moshe Dayan. "Defeat your enemies but do not humiliate them". Is there anybody that could confirm or deny this?

Noam Chomsky quoting Nur Masalha claiming that Moshe Dayan said such-and-such is not a reliable source to attribute a quote to someone. Does anyone have any verifiable source for the "dogs" quote? Otherwise, it should be removed AWN2 02:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

---

In the 1967 War section, the current-day spin on this quote is provided, but the actual quote is not:

"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.

And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'" The New York Times, May 11, 1997 www.wrmea.org/jews-for-justice/the-1967-war-and-the-israeli-occupation-of-the-west-bank-gaza-and-east-jerusalem.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.228.120 (talk) 15:54, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Rabid Dog

"Israel must be like a rabid dog, so that the rest of the region will be terrified to come near" is also a great quote. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2242/is_1663_285/ai_n6171513/pg_2

Moshe Dayan - an Armenian Jew?

Forgive me if this sounds a bit far-fetched, but were Moshe Dayan's parents Armenian Jews? I was just wonder because of the "-yan" suffix at the end of his name and the fact that he came from the Soviet Union. -- Clevelander 14:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

"Dayan" means "judge" in Hebrew. So there's no reason to draw that inference from his last name. And he did not come from the Soviet Union, because a) he was born in Deganya, and b) the Soviet Union didn't even exist when he was born. His parents came from Czarist Russia. --Leifern 14:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I meant to say that his parents came from the Soviet Union (in any case I was mistaken about that assertion too, seeing as how he was born in 1915, his parents most definitely came from Tsarist Russia). Thanks for clearing that up. I have no knowledge of Hebrew, but I'm interested in learning about the language. When I saw the "-yan" suffix on "Dayan," I thought that it could have been a shortened form of an Armenian surname. -- Clevelander 19:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Formatting

After a lot of fiddling, I have managed to reformat the opening line so that it displays properly. Previously, the use of double square brackets round the date of birth, immediately following the double brackets round Dayan's name in Hebrew, caused the line to break incorrect, like this: Moshe Dayan, DSO (Hebrew: משה דיין), (May 20 1915). After much experimenting, I realised that it would only display correctly if there was at least one English character (not a space or punctuation) between the two sets of brackets. So I have plaed a letter in white font: <font color="white">a</font> between the two. This works, but it is clumsy. Does anyone have a better solution? RolandR 11:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

When you mention Israeli territory (not west bank or not gaza strip) before the foundation of Israeli state, you shall name the location as The British Mandate of Palestine, and not Palestine.

Cause of Death

He is in the categories Category:Colorectal cancer deaths and Category:Deaths by myocardial infarction. The article indicates the latter, but it's unreferenced. William Avery 19:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

• Nine months later this contradiction is still there. Hektor (talk) 13:03, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Look67.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 00:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

There was no subdivision of the Ottoman Empire called 'Palestine'

There was no entity called Palestine until the British Mandate period.

Yes there was, it was known as Palestine before the Roman conquest.Keith-264 (talk) 14:20, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

• The use of the term Palestine was as for a vague geographical area, and not for a political or administrative unit, until after the Bar Kochba Revolt in 135 CE (as "Syria-Palaestina"). However, by the Ottoman period, no administrative unit or subdivision of the Ottoman Empire was called "Palestine". It was only with the beginning of the British Mandate period that Palestine became the official name of a demarcated territory. Jacob D (talk) 13:44, 23 October 2017 (UTC)Jacob D

DSO

Does anyone have a source for the award of the DSO? I've searched the London Gazette where awards are normally announced, with no luck, but the search engine isn't perfect. I've also tried the army recommendations for awards which are held by The National Archives and nothing's coming up there either. It's possible that as he wasn't strictly a Commonwealth citizen the award didn't go through the normal channels, or perhaps a different tranlisteration of his name was used at the time. David Underdown (talk) 09:26, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Or perhaps he did not receive DSO and it's a myth travelling from wiki to wiki without ever being sourced? Certainly looks like it since no authoritative source has been located for years. No mention of this in hewiki. Laboramus (talk) 16:51, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Syrian/Lebanon 1941

This page states that:

"When they were not relieved as expected, at 04:00 on 8 June, the unit perceived that it was exposed to possible attack and — on its own initiative — assaulted a nearby Vichy police station, capturing it in a firefight. A few hours later, as Dayan was using binoculars they were struck by a French bullet"

Can anyone elaborate on this account as the report from Lt W.G. Allan, leader of this Iskandaroun party, (found in the (Aust) 2/14 Bn War Diary, Appendix No. 83 (p142/169)) doesn't give much infm on his guides actions (other than Dayan's wounding) on this special mission nor do any other of the compay officer's reports from that morning.

I am seeking to clear up the sequence of events leading up to the cratering of the coast Road between Iskandaroun and Namoura as it had an effect on the allied advance into the Lebanon. If this man is famous, are the activities of the Palmach/Arab guides during the Syrian/Lebanon Campaign included in his biography or any other sources? Any help would be apprecaited.

(Link to war diary: http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/war_diaries/second_world_war/diary.asp?levelID=1053)

Chief Rudiger (talk) 19:09, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Plundering of archaeological sites

A very authoritative article on Dayan's illegal plundering of archaeological sites can be found here. It is from an academic journal (Journal of Hebrew Scriptures). I invite someone to mine it for this article. Zero^talk 23:52, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Womanizer ?

I object to the use of the word "womanizer". As if women were objects to be used by men. As if whatever relationships Dyan may have had did not involve another woman i.e. a sentient, consenting adult. If Dyan was a "womanizer", what were the individual women ? If he was not faithful in his marriage, I think that's relevant. How many different relationships he may have had, and with which gender is a topic more suited to the tabloid press.

The use of the word is sexist. What word exists to describe the female equivalent of a "womanizer" ? "Manizer" ? Whore ? Was Moshe Dyan a "Man-Whore" ? If so, please state this clearly, instead of mincing around your seamy, tedious and sexually perverse word "womanizer".

Unless the article has something interesting to say about the people Dyan was involved with, I don't think it's worth mentioning. Otherwise wiki is simply saying Dyan fucked a lot of women, and frankly I don't need to know that (assuming it's true), and I have to wonder why some sick twisted freak wants to tell me. Besides, how many women does someone have to nail before they qualify as a "womanizer" 50 ? Is it weighted against the number of years ? Can one person be a "womanizer" if they nail 20 women in one year, while if someone else takes 20 years to do the same number of women, they just don't make the grade ? Are the a "Failed Womanizer" ? Womanizer, Second Class ?

Are women objects, that can be "nailed" and an "X" sewn into a man's underwear like a jet pilot records the planes he's shot down ? Is a "womanizer" the sexual equivalent of and "ace" ?

And what qualifies as "womanizing". Dancing ? Kissing ? Third base ? Or do you have to go "all the way" ? What if the man has erectile dysfunction ? Does a failure to complete the act still make it onto his "womanization record" ? Maybe Medical Technology will someday come up with a prosthetic to assist men with this difficulty. A large, electric-powered machine called "The Womanizer: Guaranteed to Knock 'em Down and Rack 'em Up !" by Ronco, "As Seen on TV". Mabye George Foreman will be the pitchmen on the infomercial.

Maybe someday grubby strip malls in suburbia will offer "womanization" treatements, and experts in the field will be called "womanizationilists". Does Harvard offer a post-graduate course in "Womanization Studies" ?

99.137.251.249 (talk) 06:42, 15 January 2010 (UTC)Jonny Quick

Holy piss. It's not even like you put any effort into that and yet it went on for like 5 paragraphs. Tighten it up next time. 198.7.245.75 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:31, 5 February 2010 (UTC).

Haha man, <insert angry feminist joke here> 72.199.100.223 (talk) 22:27, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

More to the point, I read the reference cited, and it's weak. I'm just going to yank the sentence. Discuss here if someone wants to add it back, preferably better cited, and with some context. --StaniStani  08:51, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

POV, Views on Arabs/Population transfers

Hi, I feel like this will likely get rejected but... I think its important to show Moshe Dayan's understanding of the pre-1948 Arab population in Israel. He was a large advocate of ethnic population transfer of Palestinians and keeping Israel a purely Jewish state. I know its a touchy subject but its important to have a balanced article in an encyclopedia - taking in all allegations and aspects of their personalities, even when its distasteful. Here are some quotes we might want to include to show this other side of him:

He was reported in the Haartz as saying: "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either...There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab Population." (from Ha'aretz, April 4, 1969)

At the funeral of an Israeli farmer killed by a Palestinian in April 1956: "Let us not today fling accusation at the murderers. What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived...We should demand his blood not from the Arabs of Gaza but from ourselves...Let us make our reckoning today. We are a generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and gun barrel, we shall not be able to plant a tree or build a house." (from Avi Shlaim, The Iron Wall, p. 101)

In reference to right the fellahin war after 1948.... "We shoot at those from among the 200,000 hungry Arabs who cross the line [to graze their flocks]...Arabs cross to collect the grain that they left in the abandoned villages and we set mines for them and they go back without an arm or a leg…[It may be that this] cannot pass review, but I know no other method of guarding the borders." (from Righteous Victims, p. 275) Achamy (talk) 22:04, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

• Your 1969 Ha'aretz citation here is misquoted. . Your quotation of the eulogy of Roi Rutenberg is manipulated and misquoted.. As for your last quote, there appears to be no primary source material at all to support that statement. These quotes all come from a oft circulated list of quotes used to slander these people, consumed and recirculated by people seemingly incapable or unwilling to do the verification. Adrade (talk) 05:14, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

References

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Al-Dawayima massacre

There is no mention of, or link to, this Matt Adore (talk) 07:21, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Why there should be any? This is not a detailed article about the 1948 war.--יניב הורון (talk) 07:51, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Assault on the Liberty

There is no mention of Dayan ordering the attack on the US Ship Liberty.

Suez plans

I suggest it would also be worth adding something about Dayan's involvement in secret talks in Paris prior to the Suez conflict. He wrote about it in his autobiography, some of this was published in the Observer some years ago. PatGallacher (talk) 00:40, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

The second sentence of this article makes no sense

Why does the second article say but mostly as when there’s nothing in the first part of the sentence that completes the clause 2603:7080:5006:9D00:C84:2FC:4F69:57DB (talk) 23:40, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Misquote in section "Death and Legacy"

Dayan is misquoted in this section in a way to imply that he orchestrated the displacement of Arab villages by force. The correct quote is: "We came to a region of land that was inhabited by Arabs, and we set up a Jewish state. In a considerable number of places, we purchased the land from Arabs and set up Jewish villages where there had once been Arab villages. You don’t even know the names [of the previous Arab villages] and I don’t blame you, because those geography books aren’t around anymore. Not only the books, the villages aren’t around. Nahalal was established in the place of Mahalul, and Gvat was established in the place of Jibta, Sarid in the place of Huneifis and Kfar Yehoshua in the place of Tel Shaman. There isn’t any place that was established in an area where there had not at one time been an Arab settlement." Someone please fix. Adrade (talk) 05:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with what we have, which does not imply what you claim it does. Moreover, hell will freeze over before we use CAMERA as a source. Zero^talk 05:14, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

References