Talk:The Plain Truth

Untitled

Tried to lessen the POV of this. Also, I'm not sure but what a lot of this doesn't belong on the Worldwide Church of God page, rather than here, but this magazine was such a "part and parcel" of the church that I've left it for now. I am quite troubled by the links to Israel, chess, and Palestine. Bobby Fischer was associated with this group, but I don't know if that justifies catagorizing it with chess, anymore than his high school should necessarily be linked to chess. Also, are we to link every group claiming to be linked to Israel or Palestine to those categories? Rlquall 04:43, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What has been reported is a history of this magazine and its impact on the world. Having spent some time studying this group for a book I can provide some answers to your questions.

First of all the magazine, the broadcast and the church no longer exist as such. The magazine that exists by the same name is not the same magazine as published by Herbert W. Armstrong. Another group occaisionally uses the same name as the Herbert W. Armstrong broadcast, but it is not the same broadcast and the church has repudiated all doctrines, closed all colleges and is in the process of selling all property and moving! There is a good chance that it will also change its name when it moves. It is as if the Catholic Church had a "Going out of business" sale. It is quite a weird story.

However, the reason why Rohan is on this page is because Rohan read the magazine and was inspired by it to set fire to the Al Aqsa mosque.

Bobby Fischer is there because his whole life began anew according to him, after 1962 when he started listening to the broadcast and reading the literature - including this magazine. The only way to understand his behavior in 1972 is to understand what Herbert W. Armstrong was writing and predicting. Fischer still gave Armstrong his money because he thought the prophecy was delayed, only later did Fischer turn totally hostile as a result of the failed prophecy.

The story of the broadcasts interlocks with pirate radio and many other aspects of broadcasting, just as the magazine has its own story and it won't fit into one story about the church itself.

Because this story has an actual beginning and an actual end it is possible to document it, unlike other religious accounts where the story of the organization continues on. I hope that I have been able to answer your questions. If not, send them my way and I will do my best to address them. MPLX/MH 06:10, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Rationale for edits

First of all; yes, the Worldwide Church of God has a huge connection to Radio Luxembourg, pirate radio, and the like because it was such an avid buyer of airtime everywhere it could, and on the more powerful station, the better. Pirates and Radio Luxembourg gave Armstrong access to the U.K., the other main home of the "ten lost tribes" in his mind besides the U.S. The magazine was not so much involved per se other than the broadcasts and it cross-promoted each other so much that they were essentially inseparable.

Now, a rationale for my edits, which is not, sadly, in exact order. "Jingle bed" is hardly an encyclopedic term and will be poorly known outside of broadcasting insiders. The term "Pope of Rome" is, at least in modern times, generally used solely used in anti-Catholic polemics, not serious writings about the Roman Catholic Church or the papacy. I think it best to disambiguate "white" in the racial context as much as possible by linking it to Caucasian even though any many contexts (like this one) the actual word "white" seems to work better. I wished to avoid a redirect on German/Germany.

That Armstrong's doctrines were a "strange mixture" is undeniably POV to me, even though I agree that they were such, the article shouldn't reflect my feelings, or yours. Mormons, at least in the larger bodies with which I have a passing familiarity, do not disavow Christmas; rather the Mormon Tabernacle Choir has a major Christmas program, so that can't be cited as a source for that belief, although many Holiness and other groups (it is the Holiness theology in Armstrong's background that was the likely source) do. Despite his pretentions, I find very little at all of legitimate Judaism incorporated in to Armstrong's faith; I would love to see your examples on that as I could be in error. (BTW, the term "faith of Jews" sounds awkward in reference to Judaism in a way that the "faith of Christians" does not in reference to Christianity.) Lastly, while in basic agreement that the attack on the Al Aqsa Mosque qualifies as a "terrible deed", it is not the place of Wikipedia to decide what is terrible but rather to report all things, including terrible ones, and let the reader make his or her own judgments as to which of the things are terrible. All of this is submitted in the spirit of fraternal good will as part of an ongoing search for truth, Rlquall 06:49, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Rlquall: Thanks for your detailed answer which I will try to address in the same detail and in order. Let me pose a question in the first place: Would you be interested in working with me to link up the large number of articles about Armstrong that dot the Wikipedia landscape? My idea is to sift the material and file it according to topic instead of having a rag bag of everything spilling out everywhere. This requires a good template at the bottom that can be added to all articles to link them. Can you create one? I know where most of the articles are and I am still finding entries which require editing. Go over to the Talk page of British Israelism and you will find text that I have removed to the Talk page because it was in error.

Anyway, to your questions:

• "Jingle bed" is hardly an encyclopedic term and will be poorly known outside of broadcasting insiders. Insert the word "jingle" and you will find an existing entry. Having worked on the history of the PAMS jingle company (in real life) I can tell you that the jingle world is almost like a religion similar to people who collect stamps or anything else. It is a world of people who know the subject up one side and down the other and there are quite a number of them around the world. So that is a legitimate topic. A jingle bed is a jingle sans music and the closing music on The World Tormorrow was bought "off the shelf" from a Hollywood jingle company to allow Art Gilmore, a Hollywood actor and announcer to speak over the top of it. So that is both a technical and accurate encyclopedic description.
• "Pope at Rome" was used to give an example of authority in a known religious organization structure. I did not want to introduce the faith (Roman Catholicism) because it had nothing to do with Roman Catholics. I could have then cited the leader of the Eastern Orthodox faith and others, or even Jim Jones, but the Pope is unique and the history and power of the Pope at Rome (there was a Pope in France, etc.), is very specific and to the point. It shows that one individual has absolute power and Herbert W. Armstrong had absolute power over his church. This I can document.
• "White versus Caucasian". On this I really don't care. (My wife is native Japanese; I am native English-Welsh; my colleague is American Jew; my tenant is from Mexico; my neighbors are African-American (Black) and from Laos - so I don't care, race is meaningless and only descriptive to me.) The latter smacks of "political correctness" and Armstrong in the main years of his ministry believed in segregation. He did not believe in mixing races. Today we would call him a racist and many sources have. They have also accused him of being a pedaphile and committing incest over a long period of time with his daughter as well as being on the verge of alcoholism. None of that is in the texts that I have written. Armstrong did use both terms "White" and "Caucasian" to describe his racial theories which are well documented by Herbert W. Armstrong in his own words and can be found today.
• A lot of White supremists affiliate Anglo Israel with Germanic tribes and this was attached to Armstrong until I removed it. Germans were Assyrians to Armstrong and they were the source of evil. This theme runs from his writings in the 1930s up through his hang up over Strauss when he accused that man of being "The Beast". You may not agree with Armstrong's beliefs but if you change them or cover them up, then how is anyone to know anything? The Germans referred to are the ones living in Germany: all of them (except for the ones who became his members.)
• "strange mixture" is but a term on a par with eclectic and used within thesis texts within studies of comparitive religions at university level. The Morman link is with regards to the Trinity and Armstrong's belief in a family of God with many family members. It was not in relation to Christmas. For that I referenced Jehovah's Witnesses who do not believe in Christmas. These comparisons are not POV but factual reporting with references. I can document everything on this subject.
• "faith of Jews" - you can change that to anything you like that sounds good and is simple and to the point and not drawn out. No objection from me. I couldn't think of anything better at the time.
• "Al Aqsa Mosque" - Now this one got me going when I heard Arafat prattle on about this on US TV. I went to Wiki User IZAK for assistance with this since he is obviously an expert, as experts go, regarding the entire Palestine v. Israel subject. I knew that Arafat and the idiots (because that is what they are) who blow themselves and eveyone else up in the name of avenging the Al Aqsa arson attack which they blame on the Jews and Israel. I knew the story of this and so I first posted it on the Talk page of the Temple Mount Talk article and engaged a fellow Wikipedian who is also a Muslim to go and look up the references in Arabic sources and the word came back that I was correct. They are accusing the Jews and Israel. But the source is well documented and so I created an entire article about Michael Dennis Rohan and linked it where appropriate. Armstrong was to blame if anyone - not the Jews and not Israel. So these terrorists are actually fighting the words of a dead man (Armstrong) who flip-flopped and repudiated what he had previously written as a result of the mayhem. Well you can say sorry for the car wreck, but if you wrecked the car then you wrecked the car and it was Armstrong who incited the arson attack!
• Bobby Fischer. The chess fans created a totally misleading bio of Fischer. The famous 1972 'Match of the Century' was bang in the middle of the failed 1972-1975 prophecies and all of this impacted Fischer so that he came to distrust everyone and lashed out. We have his own words for that in an interview. To show the reason for it I also created an article on "1975 in Prophecy!" (similar to other book reviews. I am also doing one on the Lost Ten Tribes issue.
• "Radio Luxembourg". Armstrong's prophetic scheme revolved around two 19 year time cycles. The second one was dated from the start of Armstrong's broadcasts on Radio Luxembourg. That is a fact and it is in all of his writings. The 19 years ended in 1972 when the WWCG was supposed to flee to Petra, Jordan before WWIII in 1975.

... I am now off to work on my tenant's water heater which I have to replace. So much for the joy of buying rental property as an investment! (LOL) Let me know if you want to collaborate. MPLX/MH 16:19, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Regarding the church not seeking new members directly, I saw evidence to the contrary. When my grandfather (a subscriber to The Plain Truth) died, a representative of the church came and turned the funeral into a pleasantly-toned piece of protelytizing. This was in 1969. It began with a statement that funerals are for the living. I saw some copies of the magazine. It said that the craters on the moon were caused by a battle between God and Satan. I guess neither were in a glass house, so throwing rocks was okay. Robert A. Yourell 06:24 28 Sep 2007 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 13:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Use of Term Antichrist

In the Jerusalem Central to All Teachings section, I added a note that the Worldwide Church of God assumed the Beast and False Prophet would arise, not the Beast and the Antichrist. As a long term Plain Truth subscriber, I know they used the term False Prophet! Eligius (talk) 02:19, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Problematic phrases

For starters:

“In the latter years of his life Herbert W. Armstrong was portrayed as "God's Apostle" on Earth...” (by who?)

“...which eventually gained the outside look and feel of a high-quality magazine...”

“What made The Plain Truth magazine unique...”

“...but when combined and refined composed a unique message...”

The “Editorial impact” section should be shortened. Does it really need three excerpts from the magazine? Best feast ever? (talk) 10:05, 12 September 2010 (UTC)