Talk:Illithid

Untitled

Article merged: See old talk-page for Ilsensine here. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC) Article merged: See old talk-page for Maanzecorian here. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Illithid

Not that I'm some sort of D&D playing nerd or anything, but this is much more commonly known as illithids, IMO. Tuf-Kat

I've moved it. Tuf-Kat

There are no mind flayers or illithids in ADOM, nor any creature with similar brain-sucking powers. Are you sure that they exist in "many other roguelike games"?
Ekaterin.

Angband and Nethack have mind flayers, as presumably do most of their numerous descendants. Salsa Shark 08:20, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

How come no one mentioned Forgotten realms? Drizzt Do'Urden has both battled illithids and been captured by them. Samael the Artificer 14:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Samael the Artificer (talk • contribs)

Trademark infringement?

Wouldn't this article violate the Wizards of the Coast trademark on "Illithid"? Vaxalon 18:06, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

The Illithid is included in the system resource document, and is considered open game content under the OGL, as far as I know. I don't think there's any infringment here, because Wizards of the Coast has already given permission for the Illithid's use in stuff other than their own. Riggermantis 10:25, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

The Illithid is not considered Open Game Content, and is not included in the System Reference Document. It is one of the monsters considered Product Identity by Wizards and, as such, is protected content under the OGL. --68.237.14.235 03:39, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure if Wikipedia were to publish a d20 book with illithids in it under the OGL, then it would be a violation and WotC would care, but I doubt an article meant to answer the question of "What the hell is that?" violates anything. MasterGrazzt 07:55, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Why was ny reference to Mindflayers running a secret cabal at Cravath, Swaine & Moore removed? There is a fair amount of convincing evidence leading to this conclusion. I am not a tin-hat crazy; this stuff i for real.

Because CS&M is a real-world entity, and illithids are make-believe. Therefore... Yeah, you're pretty much the definition of a tin-hatter.

Cleanup

Well, I am a "D&D playing nerd". Gave the page a quick revision. I think I got most of the grammar, but someone should run another set of eyes over it.

Another thing: this page has quite a bit of info on these guys that's not in any of the core books, especially concerning their lore and the mechanics of "ceremorphosis". Sure would be nice to get sources for this - or at least someone who can back this up. --STGM 09:50, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Info on Ceremorphosis can be found in the Fiend Folio, I beleive, under the entry for half-illithid. --Durahan 6 December 2005

Most of the info here can be found in 'Lords of Madness: The Book of Abberations", including detailed information on ceremorphosis. Quinn 202.172.123.185 11:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Morse code?

It states that their system of lines felt by tentacles is similar to morse code, but wouldn't it be closer to braille? --Psyphics 19:24, 30 October 2005 (UTC).

76.214.149.244 (talk) 18:41, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting speculation - never thought of it that way. Wouldn't be good to add to the article, though. 71.194.32.252 (talk) 02:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.46.67.158 (talk) 16:39, 14 May 2009 (UTC) 

OK...? 204.153.84.10 (talk) 16:52, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Abheration

Could someone with the Book of Abherrations get some info on these Illithids/M ind flayers, please?

I don't quite get what you want. There's enough info for someone unversed in D&D to figure out exactly what the illithid are, and that's the sort of thing Wikipedia exists for. MasterGrazzt 07:58, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Incomplete references

see Wikipedia:WikiProject Role-playing games

• Monstrous Compendium 4 Dragonlance Appendix (TSR, 1989).
• Dawn of the Overmind module
• The Strategic Review #1, (TSR, 1975).

Robbstrd 22:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The Dragonlance MC, in which the Yaggol appears, has David Cook and Jon Winter listed under "design concept", and Bruce A. Heard listed as "design coordinator". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.2.240.130 (talk • contribs) .

I'd go with "Heard, Bruce A, et al." [1]-Robbstrd 09:43, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Try again, please

• Gygax, Gary? The Strategic Review #1, (TSR, 1975).

Putting a question mark after uncertain parts of a reference is the lazy way of writing refs. Please find out the correct information (Google is your friend). Furthermore, since the SR is a periodical, you should list the title of the article the mind flayer appears in.-Robbstrd 09:43, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Zoidberg?

Nothing serious, but anyone noticed how similar zoidberg is to a mindflayer/illithid in terms of head appearance and eating mannerism? Jackpot Den 14:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Zoidberg doesn't eat brains, and the tentacles are arranged differentl. Also, Illithids have an endoskeleton whereas zoidberg is crab/lobsterlike, with a shell. The only thing going is the number of tentacles. 82.31.111.204 (talk) 16:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Image

It seems that some consider that image of the cover of Lords of Madness to be a proper picture of an Illithid and so they are going to delete the other, much better and more clear image that has been uploaded as Image:Illithid.jpg. Can we have a consensus on which image better illustrates a Illithid? After a week, the decision will be out of our hands. The choice is:

• A: Image:Lords of Madness book cover.jpg
• B: Image:Illithid.jpg.

I choose B. -- Lilwik 11:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

We shouldn't be using a copyrighted book cover to illustrate an article that isn't about that book. Image B seems fine. --McGeddon 12:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

First off, polling is not how concensus is achieved on Wikipedia. Second, image B is also copyrighted, has a disputed fair use rationale tag, AND has been deleted once before for use violations, IIRC. Use of book covers seems to be acceptable fair use throughout Wikipedia.--Robbstrd 21:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Who's polling? And have you looked at the reason for the disputed fair use rationale tag? The only reason it's fair use is disputed is because we already have another image that supposedly shows an Illithid. If we get rid of the book cover, the dispute goes away. Plus, is this article about the Illithid, or about a book? -- Lilwik 23:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Use of book covers might happen on Wikipedia, but it's not acceptable fair use - WP:NFC specifically mentions "Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item", and specifically rules out "An image of a magazine cover, used only to illustrate the Wikipedia article on the person whose photograph is on the cover." --McGeddon 08:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

So you think that using Image:Illithid.jpg is fair use, then? It isn't. At one time, several D&D articles on Wikipedia featured such images, whether artwork from various sourcebooks (like the image in question) or photos of D&D minis. The vast majority have been deleted, due to having been deemed unacceptable for fair use.--Robbstrd 21:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Then why don't you explain why it's not fair use? (Aside from the free image, since you were saying it wasn't fair use before the free image appeared.) When you leave us hanging like that, we're likely to come to the conclusion that this case is different from those other images. After all this, is the Illithid article. Surely it is fair use to have one Illithid pictured in the Illithid article. Can you give an example that closely parallels this case where the image was deleted? There are a vast number of examples of articles that use nonfree images to give a picture of the thing they are talking about. -- Lilwik 02:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Item 1 of WP:NFC is that "non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available or could be created that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose". If a user-drawn or out-of-copyright image would serve the exact same purpose as the copyrighted equivalent, we must go with the former. --McGeddon 10:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Suddenly, we have a third image to consider. This one is especially interesting because it is free. Therefore, I think it is clear that according to the fair use rules, we no longer have fair use for image A and we should use this one instead:

• C: Image:Mindflayer.jpg

-- Lilwik 20:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Just use all of them. Who cares about copyright? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.107.157.46 (talk • contribs).

We. -- ReyBrujo 05:16, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Why? --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.107.157.46 (talk • contribs).

WP:NFC. Welcome to Wikipedia. --McGeddon 09:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

They're just images, not real content like text. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.107.157.46 (talk • contribs).

Images are real content, and are protected by copyright law just as text is. --Pak21 10:02, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems that we have a consensus to go with image C, the free one, since that is the only one the fair use policy will allow. I have removed the book cover. -- Lilwik 19:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that image looks incredibly stupid. I think you should use the book cover.--Yeerkalia 11:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we don't have fair use for the book cover because we have this free image to use. However, the license for this image allows anyone to modify it, so long as attribution is preserved. Feel free to modify it and upload the new version, like Mindflayer2.jpg, with a link on the the image page to the original. That should satisfy the attribution part of the license, and if you've improved the image we will use your version. -- Lilwik 21:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

How about we delete the free image so we no longer have it and then we can use the book cover.--Yeerkalia 20:49, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Because that goes against the whole "free encyclopedia" thing we have here. — SheeEttin {T/C} 20:57, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I for one, love the free image. It's reminiscent of the original Mind Flayer illustration in Monster Manual.66.77.144.5 (talk) 17:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, reminiscent of an era when the drawings were horrible. Surely there is someone that has drawn something less childlike and garish. ----

We need a better image does anyone have a free mind flayer picture? Tanderson11 (talk) 17:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, any fan-drawn image of an illithid would be a derivative work and, therefore, wouldn't be free. This is the best that we can do without using official art, which is of even more questionable fair-use. -Drilnoth (talk) 02:04, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Thoon

Should there be mention of the followers of Thoon (Monster Manual V) as a separate group of Illithids? The book makes it quite clear that they differ significantly from normal Illithids in motives and, in some cases, abilities. Xiphe 00:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

They're just part of the wonderful variety of illithid sects. (Boom-tish). But seriously, folks...that's not true in all settings. In Eberron, for example, they are actually closer than normal illithids to their true origins, since they've been back to their home plane far more recently. 137.166.68.65 (talk) 03:54, 3 November 2008 (UTC)Count Dorku

Citations

We need citation on the illithid variant section, does anyone know if we're allowed to use dnd books as sources? Tanderson11 (talk) 14:32, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

You absolutely may! :) It's better than nothing at all. Where possible, we need to use reliable seconday sources such as these, but in the absence of those we might as well go with what we have. :) BOZ (talk) 14:41, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

What BOZ said. Additionally, whenever you happen to come across a reliable source, please add it at WP:DND/R for ease of reference. -Drilnoth (talk) 02:05, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Yaggols

I don't know anything about dragonlance so I'm ignorant of yaggols, are they an illithid variant or should they be related creatures? Tanderson11 (talk) 14:53, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I just looked up yaggols on http://www.dlnexus.com/lexicon/15109.aspx and it doesn't mention illithids at all, they only look similar do we need them at all? Tanderson11 (talk) 15:00, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Off the top of my head, they are a related creature... but don't take my word for that; whenever possible, always go straight to the source. :) BOZ (talk) 15:00, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

The Adversary

Do we need this, we could list thousands of specific illithid related things, we want this article to be consise as possible, we don't need this clogging it up.Tanderson11 (talk) 15:39, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Darn, I keep forgetting to sign Tanderson11 (talk) 15:39, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

It takes time to get used to doing that. :) Don't know the significance of the Adversary thing, as I don't currently have access to Dawn of the Overmind, but undoubtedly that part could be shortened and still get the point across. BOZ (talk) 16:21, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Right now I propose the adversary section for deletion, it is just not relevant enough. Tanderson11 (talk) 16:52, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Makes sense. -Drilnoth (talk) 02:08, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Religion

The bold sections about certain gods have to go, if we want we should create separate articles for the gods. Tanderson11 (talk) 17:01, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm going ahead and removing the god section and making a new article for the main illithid god (can't remember his name at this time) Tanderson11 (talk) 21:09, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd added in the god sections from a merge because the two articles were too short, but it does make sense for them to be separate. -Drilnoth (talk) 02:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Cythos

Whoever said illithids are inspired better step up to the plate and tell us how they know because we need citations. Tanderson11 (talk) 21:09, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Huh? -Drilnoth (talk) 02:10, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Possible refs?

[2], [3] ???, [4] BOZ (talk) 20:26, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps Ctrl-Alt-Del should be added. Jhaagsma (talk) 22:39, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Cthulhu

How come nobody has even mentioned that the Illithid are basically wingless Cthulhus?? It's very unlikely that hte D&D creators just "happened" to imagine a creature that looks just like Cthulhu.--20-dude (talk) 07:24, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

well, hey... that image sucks

Anyone have a better image they can post instead of some 13 year old's deviantart crap on the article now?

Maanzecorian

I removed the uncited claim that Maanzecorian was the primary illithid deity prior to his death. (In my change notes I incorrectly cited "Monster Mythos (1992)", the correct title is actually Monster Mythology.) While it is possible that Maanzecorian's prominence was retconned at a later date, I cannot find anything supporting this claim in any 2e, 3e or 3.5e sources I have at hand (I have a lot). If Maanzecorian's level of godhood was indeed retconned, this retcon should be noted or at the very least cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.191.61.94 (talk) 10:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

ORIGIN OF THE MIND FLAYERS

Publication history The Mind flayers which were created by Gary Gygax, did in fact thaat an inspiration for the Mind Flayers was in fact the cover painting of the book The Burrowers Beneath written by Brian Lumley.Ok thats fine but that book that the cover art is inpired by is in fact Cthulhu Mythos fan fiction so H.P. Lovecraft does in fact deserve credit in this Wikipedia article for being the origin of the cause if Mr.Gygax's inspiration because if it was not For him and his Cthulhu Mythos Mr.Lumley would not have been inspired to write that book.

<--REX— Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.12.110.212 (talk • contribs)

"Fan fiction" and "inspired by" are not the same thing. "Fan fiction" is a non-professional writer taking someone else's copyright work and making their own stories with the same to minimally altered characters without any expectation of being published. Illithids are not Cthulhu, and are only visually similar, thus they are only inspired by. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:34, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

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Removed info

Publication history

• for the original (white box) Dungeons & Dragons game (1976), wherein they are described as super-intelligent, man-shaped creatures of great (and lawful) evil, with tentacles that penetrate to the brain and draw it forth for food.
• The article "The Sunset World" by Stephen Inniss in Dragon #150 (October 1989) presented a world that had been completely ravaged by mind flayers. The "Dragon's Bestiary" column, in the same issue and by the same author, described the illithidae, the strange inhabitants of this world.
• The ulitharid, or "noble illithid" was introduced in the Dungeon adventure Thunder Under Needlespire by James Jacobs in Dungeon #24 (July/August 1990), and later included in the Monstrous Compendium Annual One (1994).
• Monster Manual V (2007) introduced the concept of "thoon", a driving force (be it some alien god, outside philosophy, or other driving incentive) which has changed several mindflayers' world outlooks.

Fictional aspects

• Illithidae: Illithidae are to mind flayers as less intelligent animals are to humans. Known types include the cessirid, embrac, kigrid, and saltor. Dragon magazine once published a template for use in creating an illithidae creature, for use with the 1st Edition of the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game. They were updated in 3.5 in the Lords of Madness supplement.
• Neothelid: If an illithid tadpole survives but fails to undergo ceremorphosis, it will eventually grow into an incredibly powerful worm-like creature with illithid tentacles at the forefront of its body and immense mental powers. An immature neothelid variant was also detailed in Dungeon magazine #81.
• The origins of the illithids have been described in several conflicting stories offered in various D&D products, in past editions and in the current version of the game, which can be taken as successive retcons.
• The 2nd Edition book The Illithiad suggests they may be from the Far Realm, an incomprehensible plane completely alien to the known multiverse. There is no mention of time travel in this theory. Instead, they emerged somewhere countless thousands of years ago, beyond the histories of many mortal races, and spread from one world to another, and another, and so on. It is explicitly stated in this book that the illithids appear in some of the most ancient histories of the most ancient races, even those that have no mention of other races.
• The 4th Edition preview Wizards Presents Worlds and Monsters supports the claim that mind flayers originate from the Far Realm.
• In these two differing versions of the story, much of the variance hinges upon a fictional text called The Sargonne Prophecies. The Illithiad described the Prophecies as misnamed, and that much of it sounds more like ancient myth than prophecy. Lords of Madness takes the name more literally, and states that The Sargonne Prophecies are in fact prophecy—or, perhaps more accurately, a history of the future.
• Yet another version came from The Astromundi Cluster, a Spelljammer boxed set produced before The Illithiad. This version holds that the illithids are descended from the outcasts of an ancient human society that ruled the now-shattered world called Astromundi. The outcast humans eventually mutated, deep underground, into the mind flayers. (This boxed set also introduced the entity known as Lugribossk, who was depicted as a god of the Astromundi flayers then but was later retconned into a proxy of the god Ilsensine.) In the retconned history of the illithids found in either The Illithiad or Lords of Madness, the emergence of illithids in Astromundi becomes a freak occurrence due to the intervention of Ilsensine through its proxy, since the illithids of Astromundi have their own histories as emerging solely upon that world.
• However, and whenever it occurred, when the illithids arrived in the Material Plane of the distant past, they immediately began to build an empire by enslaving many sentient creatures. They were very successful, and soon their worlds-spanning empire became the largest one the multiverse had ever seen. They had the power—in terms of psychic potency and the manpower of countless slaves—to fashion artificial worlds. One such world was this empire's capital, called Penumbra, a diskworld built around a star, which was a thousand years in the making. Such was their might that the Blood War paused as the demons and devils considered a truce to deal with the illithid empire.
• Eventually, the primary slave race of the illithids developed resistance to the mental powers of their masters and revolted. Led by the warrior Gith, the rebellion spread to all the illithids' worlds, and the empire collapsed. The illithid race itself seemed doomed.
• Dungeon #100 claims the original home of the gith forerunners was a world known as Pharagos. Currently it is described as, "an unremarkable Material-Plane world, a far cry from the hotbed of magical activity and divine intervention that is the Forgotten Realms campaign or the World of Greyhawk." Beneath the Wasting Desert on that world, however, is the petrified corpse of the long-dead patron deity of the ancestors of the gith races. As is recounted in most 1st and 2nd edition sources, the ancestors of the gith forerunners were a human civilization before being modified by countless generations of illithid breeding and profane science.

This edit removed a lot of info that appears to refer to primary sources directly in the prose. Above is some of that info which should be easier to verify, cite & restore if an editor has access to the older D&D books. Sariel Xilo (talk) 15:39, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure most of this would be simple enough to source. I think it was removed because that was easier than just trying to do the work, or just leaving it for someone else who could do it. BOZ (talk) 00:45, 3 June 2024 (UTC)