Talk:Near-open central vowel

This article was nominated for deletion on 3 September 2017. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Roundedness

Is this vowel supposed to be rounded or not rounded??

Its roundedness is unspecificed. Nohat 17:12, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think it's supposed to be unrounded, but can someone who is down and jiggy with phonology answer this and make the edit if necessary? Cheers Perezkelly 02:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The rounded version of it is extremely rare. Peter238 (talk) 02:23, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Funny thing is, Russians pronounce ɐ (the sound that is normally indicated with letter "а") both as rounded and as non-rounded. Somehow, everyone is used to it. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 11:23, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Continental Portuguese

Although this symbol is used for transcription, isn't the Portuguese vowel higher than this, mid-open or even mid? kwami 01:25, 2005 August 17 (UTC)

I am removing the Portuguese example but keeping it here, in case people decide it should go back:

European Portuguese: amo [ˈɐmɔ]

In Lisbon this vowel is an exemplar of [ə]. It is higher than [ɛ] and [ɔ], and lower than [e] and [o]. At least according to the vowel chart of the IPA Handbook.

The symbol <ɐ> for unstressed a belongs to a non-IPA tradition of rotating a vowel to indicate its unstressed value. Likewise, unstressed e is transcribed <ə>, though it is not [ə] phonetically. kwami 22:25, 2005 August 17 (UTC)

However, juging from the table here, the vowel of European Portuguese you speak of is still lower than a cardinal mid vowel. So maybe it's not totally inconceivable that it be denote [ɐ]. FilipeS 20:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In American English

A vast majority of U.S. English speakers actually do use the phonetic value ʌ in words like but and cut. I know I do, for instance, as does nearly everyone else I've spoken to who isn't from the South (and I've done a lot of travelling). I'm going to update both pages with a note that GA pronunciation of the "short u" sound varies. Dave 06:49, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

According to Ladefoged, the sound in Los Angeles is [ɐ]. It may well be different than the Southern vowel, but that doesn't mean it's a back vowel. The difference could be one of height. I've never seen a formant plot that showed a back vowel. kwami 23:16, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

the table

Aeusoes1, why did you put fake meanings in? -lysdexia 01:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

If you're talking about the nut/cut thing, that was an error. I've fixed it and have removed the cleanup tags. In the future, don't be afraid to fix such errors yourself. Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 01:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NZ English: fronted?

The article states that "the /ɐː/ of car may be fronted to /ɐː/ for some speakers". The problem is that the symbol used doesn't represent a different sound at all. What is /ɐː/ sometimes fronted to? /æː/, /œː/, /ɛː/, /øː/, /eː/, /yː/, /iː/...? (If it's fronted to any of the last six, it would also be raised). Does anybody know what the /ɐː/ of car may be fronted to for some speakers? Sw258 (talk) 11:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's fronted to a near-open near-front vowel. And by the way, yes the symbol used does represent a different sound because it has an advanced diacritic underneath it. Thegryseone (talk) 17:46, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clearing that up - I didn't notice the diacritic. Sw258 (talk) 19:38, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A near open front vowel would be better written as [æ]. The current statement is confusing: "In New Zealand it may be fronted [ɐ̟]. See English phonology." The symbol under ɐ means that it is closer to the center (closer to [ə]). Was the word "fronted" the intended one or a wrong vowel used? The article, English phonology, has no explanation. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 14:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

NZ /ʌ/ is never front (meaning "fully front" rather than "not back"), it may be fronted to a near-open near-front (=advanced/fronted central) unrounded vowel. Besides, your browser is displaying that symbol wrongly; it is ⟨ɐ⟩ with ⟨+⟩ under it. Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 14:00, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sound ?

The sounds for this seems bogus. Is he supposed to be saying it twice ?Lathamibird (talk) 07:19, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's just a bug in your browser. I'm using Firefox, I played the sound twice. The first time it sounded ok, the second time it sounded as you described. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 10:42, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Valencian

Due to vowel harmony and vowel reduction/centralisation (which is also found in many Valencian dialects), final unstressed /a/ may approach to [ɞ̞] in cases like porta (door) and [ɜ̞] in cases like festa! (party!). Also in further cases it can become palatalised and velarised, which makes it further front or back. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 01:29, 28 January 2016 (UTC) Shall I add all the distinct allophones of unstressed /a/? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 01:59, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I added [ɞ̞] to the table, but try to dig up a source to back it up. Also, we need IPA for the example word (I don't know which ⟨o⟩ is there). Peter238 (talk) 02:02, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's ɔ but it's a bit fronted and lowered, it's also less centralised than unstressed /a/ — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 03:19, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Done, thanks. Peter238 (talk) 03:34, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome, it's also slightly less rounded so it sounds more harmonious with final a :-) and I will try to look for a source but I'm not too sure if any other phoneticians are aware of this (Saborit only uses æ/ɛ and ɒ - he mentions some centralisation but it's not as extreme as this type) — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 03:38, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@JaumeR: It's hard to talk to someone who basically ignores what I say. I told you (twice) that it is not about Valencian having more than one variants of [ɐ], but about the presence of more than one Valencian example, which is not needed (it's not the article Valencian, which is the appropriate place for such fine details). I'm reverting again, please actually read my edit summaries in the future. Peter238 (talk) 04:24, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am not ignoring what you say, I just don't understand your point, and it doesn't make sense to me. In my language a centralized /ɛ/ (æ) is not the same than a centralized /ɔ/ (ɒ), or a plain /a/ is not the same than a harmonised /a/... — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 04:32, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Therefore, based on the difference of these sounds I will revert you, and just because for me and many Valencians they are not the same — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 04:34, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

IMO if a stressed /ɛ/ (like in Miquel) is described as a type of near-open near-front unrounded vowel, a harmonised final /a/ (preceded by a stressed /ɛ/) would be slightly more centralized than /ɛ/ in Miquel. Also a derived word like Micalet or Miquelet would have more centralization than the original term "Miquel". Do you understand me? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 05:39, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the vowel which has the [ɐ] quality, not Valencian and all of its vowel allophones. The argument "ąs I say they are different sounds, unless you split the page and add a new vowel to represent this one this should be displayed here" is invalid, you should pick up the sound that is most similar to the default IPA value of [ɐ] and list it here, and ignore the less similar sound (listing all of them on Valencian is perfectly ok). No specific dialect has more than one example in our vowel/consonant articles, so we definitely should not be making exception in case of Valencian. Any thoughts from other editors? Peter238 (talk) 06:20, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Who is saying this article is for Valencian and all its allophones? IMO if a language has several allophones we can add them, also AFAIK this article includes several qualities surrounding [ɐ]. If Valencian has several allophones for /a/ that are close to ɐ but are not the same since most people can see the difference, it's not our fault, it's how nature has made us — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 06:36, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not talking about fault or lack thereof, I'm saying that what you're proposing is an overkill. Peter238 (talk) 07:43, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's how is the reality Peter. I'm also doing the same than when I added the Spanish ɸ, which is also similar to what other users do with the languages they know. The problem with the Valencian /a/ is that we lack specific articles like the near-open near-front/back vowels, but that's ok for me. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 08:24, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Since Peter238 asked for outside opinions, here's one. It seems like this same situation occurs with a lot of languages: where the language has multiple phonemes or allophones that could be all be listed in the same phone page. For instance, for an extreme example, Ubykh has five uvular stop phonemes: /qʲ q qʷ qˁ qˁʷ/. So, Ubykh should get to have five examples at voiceless uvular stop, but only one example is listed: [qʰɜ] (I guess that's a case of /q/). So, if Ubykh gets only one example, why should Valencian have more than one?

Ubykh is an extreme case, but many languages have unaspirated and aspirated stops, /p pʰ/, or plain and palatalized, /p pʲ/. Currently all these variants aren't listed, though they are often explained in the Notes column. If Valencian gets two examples, then all these other languages should get as many examples as they could have, and there will be a lot of work to do, and the lists will be very long.

I did have a crazy idea for a compromise. What if there's a short example that showcases both of these Valencian [ɐ]-like vowels? Not sure if that's possible, but whatever. — Eru·tuon 09:04, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your explanation Eru and I see you prefer to summarise certain stuff. IMO it's difficult to do this now since we include many allophones/variants that are labelled as ɐ (and not only these allophones and this article, but others too). Also an abbreviation with just two sounds would hide the main realizations about the Valencian harmonization processes (unlike Murcian which displays 5 types of harmony). I would agree with three examples (i.e. a plain /a/, a centralised ɛ, and a centralised ɔ – as it's displayed now). As you can see I didn't include the palatalized/velarized allophones as they're more complex (and I think the substitution of terra (tèrrè) / festa (fèstè) for Miquelet (Micalet) already summarises certain processes). I have a question, if the Iberian languages have a specific section for the alveolar retracted sibilants, why don't we have space for the sounds of Ubykh? I don't think that's fair. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 10:12, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your input, Erutuon. If it's possible then yes, it's a good idea. If it's not, then I propose the following: one Valencian example, with the following note: "Main realization of /a/. It can be slightly lowered in stressed position or in contact with liquids. Also appears as an allophone of unstressed /a/ and /e/ during vowel harmony processes."

If the vowel is near-front, we can simply list it on near-open front unrounded vowel (near-open near-front vowels are already there - see Estonian, Maastrichtian Limburgish). If it's near-back, list it on open back unrounded vowel (near-open near-back vowels are already there - see Belgian Standard Dutch, Maastrichtian Limburgish; see also Estonian, Finnish that have near-open back vowels).

Allowing two Valencian examples here creates a precedence and also a massive amount of work - after all, to be fair, we would have to list all variants of a certain sound from a specific language, otherwise that would indeed be unfair. Are you willing to do that? I'm certainly not.

What I don't like is that JaumeR, instead of discussing the issue here, is imposing such a precedence by edit warring instead of waiting for a consensus to include two Valencian examples. What makes that edit warring much stranger is that neither of those examples is sourced. So, technically, anyone could remove them both.

Iberian languages do not have a specific section for the alveolar retracted sibilants, it's just that the majority of the languages listed there are (or may be, I haven't counted that) Iberian. So there's no unfairness. Peter238 (talk) 17:27, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I beg your pardon? I am not imposing anything, I just act according to honesty, and... what's the matter with you, can't you see these are different processes with different vowels in different environments? The examples clearly correspond to different realizations, just like Spanish include several examples for ɸ (Voiceless bilabial fricative, voiceless bilabial approximant) with several graphs or like English has several ɐ. And we have a source for the example Miquelet and the plain /a/. I'll add it tonight or tomorrow.

The vowel /ɛ ~ e/ is not near front in Miquelet but central, Miquel (like set 'seven') has a near-open near-front unrounded vowel (which according to the wikipedia is also found in Norfolk English). — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 19:19, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

English examples are typically from many dialects, not all from the same dialect. The two examples of [ɸ] from North-Central Peninsular Spanish are probably breaking the rule of not including more than one example from a language variety, and one of the examples should be removed. — Eru·tuon 19:33, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For "impose", see [1] (or [2]) and [3].

What you are failing to see is that this article is not about Valencian and its vowel processes. We shouldn't devote more space for Valencian than for other languages. Peter238 (talk) 19:23, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I know the definition of that Latinate term as I am from Southern Europe and I am a Romance speaker. We don't have more space for Valencian than for other languages. Have you seen how much space English or Spanish use (e.g. ɸ)? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 19:29, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oh right, well then we can change the dialect, and add Northwestern Catalan (i.e all Western Catalan dialects) as /ɛ/ also becomes centralised there. In Northwestern Catalonia however there are not rounded allophones for coda /a/, except in Occitan/Aranese where (I think) final /a/ may approach to ɔ or o in some cases. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 19:40, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

But AFAICS we're talking only about the table for the unrounded vowel. The table for the rounded vowel is another story. Peter238 (talk) 19:45, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes [ɞ̞] is another story as it occurs in a different environment. A centralised /ɛ/ (or æ) is different, as it also affects /ɛ ~ e/, and a plain /a/ is just an "a". — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 19:54, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't like Miquelet (i.e. derived from Miquel) as an example, we could always replace it by Vicenteta (derived from Vicenta) — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 20:04, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The source doesn't match the content for Arabic

No part of the Arabic example and explanation "Allophone of short /a/ in unstressed syllables for Persian Gulf speakers." is to be found in the source provided. Furthermore, "Persian Gulf speakers" is an ambiguous term as it can refer to Gulf Arabic or the dialects of Peninsular Arabic (including Gulf Arabic). --KoveytBud (talk) 01:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@KoveytBud: If you find a ref falsification, WP:BEBOLD and remove it. Mr KEBAB (talk) 02:09, 18 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Icelandic?

I noticed the absence of Icelandic in the chart. I don't know of any reliable sources for this, but just from listening it seems like unstressed /a/ is often realized in Icelandic as [ɐ]. The Icelandic phonology article doesn't mention this, and I haven't found any specific reliable sources. Anyone else hear this?162.247.45.152 (talk) 18:08, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You answered yourself: it's not here because nobody is aware of a source that discusses what you're talking about. Some amount of mid-centralization of unstressed vowels is to be expected in pretty much any language that has relatively few (or a moderate amount of) vowels. Plus, Icelandic has no contrastive unrounded vowel near the /a/ space, which opens up the possibility of /a/-raising in unstressed contexts. Mr KEBAB (talk) 18:25, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This page doesn't need to exist

All this does is create an extra step in getting readers to the right information. I'm nominating this for deletion and redirecting Ɐ (IPA) to Near-open central unrounded vowel which is where it needs to go per IPA. Pariah24 (talk) 17:33, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Pariah24: Per IPA? ⟨ɐ⟩ has an undefined roundedness... Mr KEBAB (talk) 17:35, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well regardless both articles use the exact same audio. Please see my AfD entry. Pariah24 (talk) 17:48, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK Pariah24 has changed his mind and so I'll close the AfD discussion and remove the tag. Mr KEBAB (talk) 19:38, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relevant discussion at Talk:Mid central vowel#Challenging the recent edits by Kbb2, especially concerning German

Relevant discussion at

→ Talk:Mid central vowel#Challenging the recent edits by Kbb2, especially concerning German

--mach 🙈🙉🙊 17:00, 4 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is the sound clip correct?

I find it hard to believe that this sound clip in this article is actually of the near-open central vowel. It sounds very different to my ears from how this vowel is pronounced in the languages and dialects I speak (British English and European Portuguese), nor does it sound like any of the vowels I hear in the small russian clip found in this same article. To my ears it is far closer to an open central vowel.

Is this a mistake? Is there a better quality clip that could be used instead? 80.2.140.122 (talk) 13:54, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I concur... at least that the sound clip for /ɐ/ sound fishily near-identical to the one for /ʌ/. Wolfdog (talk) 23:21, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's possibly been a discussion about this already elsewhere, but it's not on this talk page, so I'm going to change it to another one. Tell me if this sounds right. Wolfdog (talk) 23:25, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See Help talk:IPA#Vowel samples revisited. Nardog (talk) 23:28, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The example for Vietnamese is wrong

As a Vietnamese, the example "chếch" is wrong. ê is pronounced like e (Close-mid front unrounded vowel).

A correct example would be "ba" (translation in English is the number three) Kevingb1 (talk) 17:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]