Talk:Prosciutto

Anyone can claim the word

I came here looking for why I can't call American or Canadian bacon "Prosciutto" - I am not more informed for it. The wiki article says it is dry cured pork with a salted brine. Why is this a separate article from the generic curing of meat? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.178.26.221 (talk) 06:52, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

AOC laws

Is this product restricted by AOC laws? Rmhermen 21:59, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)

airy place

"Sunny, airy place"? Or a shady airy place. Wetman 12:30, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Another delicious idea for Proscuitto....

Proscuitto is delicious when wrapped around fresh, uncooked asparagus tips. Mmmmm....

Terminology

Wait a second. In Italian, "Prosciutto" does not imply how the ham has been cured. In fact, by default, that would mean "prosciutto cotto", although the clerk would ask the customer a confirmation before slicing it ("Cotto" or "crudo"?).

"Parma ham" translates as "Prosciutto crudo". Now, if with time in English "Prosciutto" came to mean "Parma ham", that's another story, which should be made clear. PizzaMargherita 11:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've done it. PizzaMargherita 07:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

As to avoid the problems with the names prosciutto and Parma ham, I have rephrased the first paragraph in a mode that I hope is acceptable to anyone. The former indication (Prosciutto or Parma ham is ...) is definitely incorrect, and the current phrasing says it all as it should. LHOON 21:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

In the UK, "Parma ham" means "prosciutto crudo". If you show the picture to anybody in the UK, they would say "Parma ham". Brits don't care if it's San Daniele, Prosciutto di Parma or whatnot. What Americans (incorrectly) call "Prosciutto", Brits (incorrectly) call "Parma ham". Therefore I am willing to revert to previous version, perhaps making it clearer that one is US and the other is UK usage.

Prosciutto (US), or Parma ham (UK), is a dry-cured ham from central and northern Italy. Varieties are also produced in other Adriatic countries.

The current wording

In English language, the term is used more narrowly for a dry-cured ham from central and northern Italy, especially the Parma ham.

does not make sense to somebody who doesn't know that Prosciutto di Parma is a kind of "Parma ham". It also conflicts with the further explanation in the "Terminology" section. I hope this clears things up. PizzaMargherita 22:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree to make the distinction between UK and US usage, and will adapt the article like that, starting however with the correct meaning of prosciutto (ham in italian), and explaining UK and US usage. LHOON 23:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Cool, thanks PizzaMargherita 06:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Just a small point. The term "prosciutto", in Italian, does not necessarily mean the meat has been cured in any way. It just means leg of pork. This is what you would probably be given if you asked for it in a butchers, rather than a "deli".

Dry Curing

i think there should be more information about dry curing. for example, is dry curing the process of salting uncooked meats and leaving the meats to dry? also, is dry curing that simple, that all one does is clean the meat, salt it and leave it out to dry? what does "cleaning" the meat entail? thanks to anyone who can drop knowledge. Streamless 12:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Can someone please add how this word is pronounced? Thanks!—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 02:28, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Italians pronounce it "pro'shoot-toe". I've never heard a native English speaker say it (Brits call it "Parma ham"), but given how Americans pronounce "bologna" I wouldn't be surprised if they pronounced it completely differently, in which case we will have to put both. Anyway, I need some help in putting the correct IPA symbols. I'm particularly unsure about the stop before the "t". I'm not sure if it's a glottal stop, because you stop the vocal tract with your tongue and teeth. It's more like a dental stop... PizzaMargherita 07:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Americans(well, New Yorkers) pronounce it as the Italians do. --Mmx1 01:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

in Australia, it's pronounced pro shoot toe. Some people, like chefs and people pretending to be fancy, call it pros cute toe. Naysie 06:32, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Why move Eastern Adriatic countries to the bottom?

Prosciutto, known locally under a slightly different name (pršut), is just as important part of, say, Slovenian or Croatian cuisine as it is of Italian cuisine. Slovenia's Karst/Kras Prosciutto (Kraški pršut) also has protected origin status (PGI). Yes, the names are different, but they redirect to this article and the term prosciutto is generally used to describe them in English (unlike, say, Iberian ham). After all, despite the different names, the varieties of prosciutto in Italy and the Eastern Adriatic countries have much in common. Therefore, the decision to move those countries to the bottom strikes me as a regrettable example of ethnocentrism. Even a quick look at the categories at the bottom will reveal how erroneous the decision to marginalize Eastern Adriatic prosciutto really was. WorldWide Update 21:51, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Prosciutto comes from Italy, there's no doubt about that. I don't think many English speaking readers refer to pršut when they say "prosciutto". Most readers would probably not care about all that info about production "in other Adriatic countries" in the second sentence of the article. They would see it as a "nice to know". This is why I moved it together with all others in the ghetto of ethnically cleansed countries. Because, as you skillfully worked out, that is my mission in WP.

Also, could you please add a reference to back up PGI status of Kraški pršut? The referenced site disagrees. PizzaMargherita 23:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that prosciutto "comes from Italy". It is just as native to the Slovenian Karst, Istria, or Dalmatia as it is to Parma. Of course, the Eastern Adriatic has historically been Italian-influenced, but that doesn't mean that these countries do not have a right to consider it a part of their cuisines. After all, it developed there separately, with unique characteristics, just as it developed separately in various Italian regions. You agree that not all prosciutto comes from Parma, right? Well, it's equally true that not all prosciutto comes from Italy.

You are right when you say that "not many English speaking readers refer to pršut when they say 'prosciutto'". However, the opposite is true: Many English-speakers use the term "prosciutto" when referring to Slovenian or Croatian "pršut". A quick Google search should confirm that. In fact, I just finished reading a long article in US-based Gourmet magazine about Slovenian gastronomy, and, as is usually the case, the authors use "prosciutto" as a synonym for pršut. It's really the same thing in a different language: A Slovenian discussing Parma prosciutto will always refer to it as "pršut". And "pršut" redirects to this article. It has for a long time.

Let's look at an opposite situation: Teran is a type of wine closely associated with Slovenia (and Croatia) but also produced in Italy. If you check the Wikipedia entry for teran, you'll see that Italy gets its due mention, even though it uses a slightly different name. Why should prosciutto be any different? Different countries can share the same food (or versions thereof).

You say that "most readers would probably not care about all that info about production in other Adriatic countries in the second sentence of the article". Well, I happen to think that it's important to state at the beginning where prosciutto -- under that name, as commonly used in English -- is produced. The way you state it, it appears as if prosciutto is an exclusively Italian product which also happens to be produced in a few other countries, and even this fact you present as an afterthought of an afterthought. Well, that's not the case: Prosciutto is an important part of the national cuisines of several Adriatic countries. If people care about prosciutto production in various Italian regions, I don't see why they wouldn't care about varieties from Slovenia, Croatia, or Montenegro.

However, you are absolutely right about the PGI status of Kraški pršut; I misread the original article. It is currently protected in Slovenia under an approximate national equivalent of the PGI designation, and while there are ongoing plans to have it protected on the EU level (PGI or TSG), it is not currently on any PGI lists (probably because Slovenia only became a member of the EU less than two years ago). I apologize for the error. Of course, you are welcome to remove it from the list if you feel that geographic protection on a national level isn't sufficient.

Nevertheless, considering what I've said, and the fact that pršut is redirected here, I simply don't understand whay this article should only cover Italian varieties of prosciutto, when this word is clearly also a synomym for pršut. And pršut isn't that unknown either; particularly the Karst variety is exported to a number of European countries (including Italy!). It is also heavily promoted in the tourist press.

In other words, why change the status quo, when it has presented no problems in the past? WorldWide Update 01:04, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that prosciutto "comes from Italy".—This is what I mean: [1], [2], [3], [4]. Tell me if you need more. I don't see any reference to any "other adriatic countries" there. So please stop pushing your ethnocentric POV.

[prosciutto] is clearly also a synomym for pršut—Please provide a reference of an English dictionary or thesaurus supporting this theory.

So tell me, is pršut the same as prosciutto or is it different? If it's different, then pršut should have its own article (like Elenski but has) and link, not redirect here. If it's the same, then, as you seem to suggest, the word is simply the Slovenian (etc) word for "prosciutto". You don't see and entry for "bantal" redirect to "pillow", do you? The fact that pršut has redirected here for a while doesn't necessarily make it right.

Of course, you are welcome to remove it from the list—Why, thank you very much. I'm going to the supermarket later, do you need anything? Why don't you provide a reference to back up the fact that it's under the "approximate national equivalent of the PGI" instead? PizzaMargherita 07:51, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

1. Well, I can also play that game. Do a Google search of the words "Slovenian" or "Slovenia" and "prosciutto" (not as a phrase) and tell me what you get. Prosciutto does indeed come from Italy, but it doesn't come just from Italy. Baklava is an Arabic dish, but it's also Greek.

2. There is no dictionary entry for pršut for precisely the reason I mentioned: English speakers tend to use "prosciutto" to describe pršut.

3. Yes, it's the same thing as prosciutto, but it's also slightly different, just as the Modena variety in Italy is slightly different from the Veneto variety. It's all the same family, unlike Elenski but, whose origins and name are different.

4. Here [5] is one reference that indicates that kraški pršut is protected under the Slovenian equivalent of the PGI. It's in Slovenian only. WorldWide Update 09:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

1. No, you can't really play the same game, can you? I have provided specific authoritative references. On the other hand, have you tried the Google search you suggested?

2. English speakers don't just "tend to" use prosciutto. They use prosciutto because pršut is not an English word.

3. It follows from what you say that it's ok to put these types of prosciutto together with the other types, and that is not in the second sentence of the article.

PizzaMargherita 10:51, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

1. Well, your sources -- which, BTW, I wouldn't consider that authoritative -- state that prosciutto is Italian. I'm not disputing that. Returning to my example, many sources also state that baklava is Middle Eastern. But it's also Greek, Bosnian, Bulgarian, etc., just as prosciutto is not only Italian.

2. You say that "They use prosciutto because pršut is not an English word." Thank you for proving my point! That's precisely the reason why pršut should be included in this article about prosciutto -- and not just as an afterthought. English-speakers looking for information about, say, Dalmatian prosciutto [6] will look for it here.

3. No, Elenski but and jamon iberico have a different name and different origins. Italian prosciutto and the varieties from the Eastern Adriatic countries, on the other hand, belong to the same family. After all, Italy and the coastal areas of these countries share a lot more than just prosciutto. WorldWide Update 11:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so the Cambridge dictionary and Merriam-Webster and "not that authoritative", are they?

We don't list all the regions where prosciutto is produced in the first paragraph, and I don't think we should, because the list is very long. Why should "other Adriatic countries" be an exception?

I propose we change the opening sentence to, "Prosciutto, or Parma ham, is a dry-cured ham, original from central and northern Italy." [italics mine] and move the second sentence in a section about production, where we can say where it is currently produced worldwide, listing the different kinds of prosciutto, with PGI status or otherwise. We should obviously keep the links to other types of dry-cured hams in a separate section. Ideally also the article should have another section about gastronomy. PizzaMargherita 13:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

1. No, I would not consider dictionaries (of any kind) to be authoritative references for such matters.

2. Well, I agree that specific regions don't need to be mentioned, but countries should be there, so people will know where to place the dish geographically. If you think that's just too many countries, a reference to "most Adriatic countries" would probably suffice.

3. I like this better, but the main problem remains: Prosciutto, under this name, is also original to, say, the Kras region. Look it it this way: Had most of Kras (a.k.a. the Karst) remained in Italy after WWII, there's little doubt that this type of prosciutto would have a similar status as the other Italian varieties. Agree? But if you phrase it your way, it implies that the dish is not really native to that region -- i.e. that it's only native to various regions in modern-day Italy -- which isn't really true. It also doesn't make much sense to list pršut together with, say, jamon iberico, which is widely known under its own, very different name, or some U.S. varieties, which have almost no history or culinary tradition associated with them and are certianly not native to the United States. In the spirit of compromise, how would referring to "Italy and other Adriatic countries," without specifically mentioning them at the beginning, sound to you? WorldWide Update 16:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that even leaving "other Adriatic countries" in the introduction is simply too much detail for an introduction, and as you can see it's just asking for a long list of countries to tailgate. What's the problem with doing all these explainations below?

The way I see it is, there are five sets:

• The set of countries where prosciutto (the word and the cold cut) originated. As the references I offered confirm, that set contains only one country. If you disagree, please offer a reference that supports your theory.
• The set of regions that produce prosciutto, even if it's called with a different name. And by the way, since that word means prosciutto in a language other than English, even the presence of a redirect is debatable, because WP is not a dictionary.
• The set of types of prosciutto, and the region where they are produced. There is also a subset of EU PDO, PGI, and TSG prosciutto. And, if we really want to include this list, there is also the subset of "approximate national equivalent" PGI types of prosciutto. Their inclusion should be supported by references (in the article).
• The set of cold cuts that are similar to prosciutto. These include jamon, but, etc. It would be nice to have a section where these are compared.
• The set of cuisines that use prosciutto. As I said, it would be nice to add a section about this. PizzaMargherita 20:45, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

---

I've read this too long discussion and I don't see the real disagreement on the facts. However, I also fail to see the rationale for PizzaMargherita's last edit. Why excluding the list of countries from the intro, which was fairly short? Worse still, why removing every reference to the form pršut? I'm not up to an edit war, but I object to removal of information without sufficient justification. The honor to its Italian origin was already given by the article title and very first sentence. Duja 21:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Apologies for the removal, I didn't realise that the info was not repeated below—Karst pršut was actually still mentioned, but not the other info. However, please note that removal of the list of "other Adriatic countries" from the second sentence was agreed upon. As I explain above, I also oppose mentioning "other Adriatic countries" in the intro, but it seems there is no agreement on that.

Finally, as I have said, pršut is not simply a "form". It is a translation of "prosciutto" in another language. Prosciutto is an English (loan) word, pršut is not. In the Bergamo province in North of Italy, prosciutto is known as "persöt", but we don't mention it here, do we? PizzaMargherita 22:45, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I do agree that pršut is not an English word and prosciutto is. I just oppose removing info which was short and relevant; if not for other reason, it might help the English reader understand the menu. And we do try to list all the important local names for all internationally-shared things, like meals, music instruments, don't we? There are no "hard" borders, but if some 25 million people in the producing countries calls the thing pršut in the local language(s), I don't see the reason not to mention it in one word. I wouldn't object mentioning it in Bergamo dialect, either. We seem to agree about facts, but have different opinions about relevance, though. I don't object having somewhat Italocentric view in the current article (after all, it's the origin and most important produced), but I do object if you try to make it entirely Italocentric. As for "Adriatic countries", I'm not too much against that formulation, but since there are only 3 (and a half) of them, why be ambiguous?

P.S. I added "Njeguški pršut" because it is a famous and geographically confined location in Montenegro, but I can't find the info about the legal status of the name protection at the moment.

"I just oppose removing info which was short and relevant"—"Other Adriatic countries" is short. I think anything longer than that is not. And relevance is a matter of degree and, so it seems, rather subjective. Also the info was not removed (well ok it was by accident at first) but moved.

"it might help the English reader understand the menu"—Once again, this is not what WP is for. WP is not a dictionary.

"I wouldn't object mentioning it in Bergamo dialect, either"—I'm strongly against it. That would make it two words, not one. And then somebody comes along, who also wants his dialect to be mentioned, too (now we are not necessarily talking about this article). Where do we stop? (This is incidentally what was happening with the list of Adriatic countries at the top, and I suspect that so long as we have "other Adriatic countries" there, this will keep happening.)

"since there are only 3 (and a half) of them, why be ambiguous?"—We are not ambiguous, the countries are listed. Just not at the beginning of the article.

Anyway, apart from this the article is in need of some restructuring, as outlined in the bullet points above. What do you think about them?

PizzaMargherita 06:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

• I love it, people on here can even argue a month over prosciutto. WorldWide Update, don't be so secure my dear. PizzaMargherita, be aware that the feelings of the Eastern Europeans, Slavs, etc. is quite tender. They want to show they have something too. Look at FYROM, they like to claim they are from Alexander the Great. :-)

• Oh face it, you're just saying that because you're unfortunate enough never to have had any Karst pršut. And I suspect the same of PizzaMargherita. You're both in denial, that's all. Oh, and here's a smiley face, just for you :-) TomorrowTime 06:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Ways to eat Prosciutto?

can anyone suggest some ways to eat Prosciutto? i just know a simeple way is that to eat with melon sweet and salty,juicy and dry amazing match!

I believe that's mentioned in the intro. PizzaMargherita 06:12, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Never heard of that. In brooklyn, you pretty much can't get proscuitto (bur-jewt) unless it's on a sandwich with fresh mozzerella. Liu Bei 16:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Pronounciation by English speakers and US/UK use of the term

Liu Bei, you mean it's pronounced "bur-jewt" in the US? Wow. We should mention it. I never heard anybody use the word "prosciutto" in the UK, so I don't know if it's even used at all there. "Parma ham" is definitely preferred. PizzaMargherita 22:06, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I mentioned this above. Here in Australia, it's usually called prosciutto and pronounced pro shoot toe, unless you're trying to sound posh, then you say pross cute toe. Naysie 06:35, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The term "prosciutto" came into use in the UK after the war, and in particular after Elizabeth David's books introduced continental food to UK readers. Since then, and with many different versions readily available, the hams are generally referred to by their regional descriptions. Pronunciation in the UK is pretty much as Naysie describes above, but with numerous regional and personal variations. Sorry, but no references to back that up. LittlePete 08:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed,the traditional pronounciation by Italian/American's, mostly over the age of 40, was always "bur-jewt" or "pur-jute". This however is a generational thing, and most young people have taken on the more "Americanized" Pronounciation of "Prij-ew-tow". Cosand (talk) 16:53, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Prosciutto di Montagnana

I removed this from the designated origin list because I couldn’t find it on the EU site at [7]. In fact the Prosciutto di Veneto Berico-Euganeo producers consortium for protection is based in Montagnana, so it might be that the it’s the same thing being mentioned twice. —Ian Spackman 15:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Import to US

I remember a show about American delis that stated some place was the first to serve prosciutto after it was approved for consumption in the U.S. or something close to this statement. Was America ever unable to import prosciutto due to an issue with hte meat (rather than an inability to import many items from Italy/all of Europe)?

When I was a kid, the real Parma style was illegal in the US (although my parents occassionally got it anyway, it was very expensive). Something about the FDA being concerned about diseases in cured meat. When I was 20 or so, it was legal to import it again. --Amcalabrese (talk) 17:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Rename??

Given the PDO bandwagon is increasingly making semi-generic names like 'prosciutto' anachronistic, particularly given the inconsistent use of this particular name across the English-speaking world, and given the Prsut debate above - would it not make more sense to move this article to air-dried ham or dry-cured ham? You could then hang Bayonne, Prsut etc off it as 'daughter articles', and it could act as a {{main}} appendage for the dry-cured section of the Ham article. This article seems to be moving towards that kind of more general overview in any case, and there would be no debate about whether serrano or Prsut are dry-cured hams. As an aside, I find it interesting that the Portuguese and Balkan words are so similar - what's the link? Obviously it would need a bit of a rewrite of this and the main Ham article (I've already nudged it a bit in that direction), but I think it would work better under a more general name and spare us some of the debates above. FlagSteward 14:15, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Dunno about Portugal, but in the Balkans the name is simply a domestification of the Italian word - historically, a lot of Italian populace lived in the litoral regions of the Eastern Adriatic and the various pršuts are the result of a cultural exchange (which is the reason why some of the people in the above pršut debate simply amount to prejudiced dicks) TomorrowTime (talk) 09:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Some inconsistency

The "In other countries" section starts with:

Air-dried hams are made throughout southern Europe, and most of these traditional products now have some kind of PDO protection

and closes with:

Similar hams are produced in many countries, in many cases imitating others rather than following a long tradition.

These two seem to contradict eachother (i.e. traditional vs. imitating). Upon more careful reading, the closing sentence could be understood to mean air-dried hams not listed above the closing sentence, but I still find it a bit vague and confusing. Could we possibly make the "in other countries" list clearer? We could clasify by PDO status and in case that's not available, by tradition - thereby avoiding products that don't have a long tradition. For starters, I will add the word "other" to the closing sentence. TomorrowTime (talk) 10:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see much contradiction myself - as a first approximation if (country is in Southern Europe) then (there's some kind of traditional dry ham). Most countries are not in Southern Europe, therefore their dry hams are imitations. FlagSteward (talk) 23:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I may have overreacted a bit there. As you can see a bit higher from here, some people have argued before that unless a prosciutto is produced in Italy proper, it should not be included in the article, and there have been some harsh between the lines insinuations. The ending sentence of that section works fine with the inserted other now. I still think a classification of the "in other countries" prosciuttos would be welcome, if anyone is competent enough to do it. TomorrowTime (talk) 13:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

As I suggested above, that could just be because actually there's not much to distinguish the Italian variant from the other Mediterranean hams - and prosciutto is an unsatisfactory name for the article in any case, because it's a word that's not used in some major anglophone countries (ie Britain) so you've got a version of the airplane/aeroplane -> fixed wing aircraft debate, never mind what prosciutto means in Italian.... For me the case for moving to Air-dried ham or similar is pretty compelling. FlagSteward (talk) 17:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You know, that sounds like a pretty good idea. I'd support it. TomorrowTime (talk) 18:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you want to set it in motion, you're welcome - I'm a bit busy right now, I'd forgotten that I'd even left this page on my watchlist.... FlagSteward (talk) 19:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"Because it's a word that's not used in some major anglophone countries (ie Britain)"???? What?? I was born in London, grew up in Hong Kong, mother's Australian, Dad's Scots, family members in Canada, South Africa and India, and I've lived in the US for over 20 years... Prosciutto is the only word I've ever heard to describe "Air dried Ham". Please leave this article here.Mycroft321 (talk) 17:42, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

So Mycroft, how much of your adult life have you actually spent in the UK? Prosciutto is not unknown in the UK, and has become less rare under the influence of the likes of the River Café, but tends to be confined to London foodie types, and Italian communities in places like Glasgow. The WP:COMMON phrase in the UK would still be Parma ham - as a random example, Parma ham is what one Scotsman calls it - I think we can regard Gordon Ramsey in The Times as a fairly WP:RS. ;-/ And Prosciutto still doesn't get round the problem that it's the same basic stuff whether it comes from the French Basque country or the Balkans. FlagSteward (talk) 00:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I was born in Guatemala, grew up in Congo, father's Thai, I lived in Finland for 20 years, I have a pen-pal from Chile, and it's not called prosciutto in the UK, it's called Parma ham, whatever the origin. The article should reflect that, like it once used to. 169.71.50.11 (talk) 06:44, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Parmigiano Reggiano as food for pigs?

Living in an area dedicated to manufacturing (and eating) prosciutto di Parma, I ought to know something about this bizarre way of feeding pigs. Alas, I never heard anything about it. Can somebody please confirm or correct?--Broletto (talk) 20:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I misread and didn't properly evaluate the word "Whey". Ok, the whey is residuated from the manufacturing of Parmigiano Reggiano and is given to pigs.--Broletto (talk) 21:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Created in France?

this was just added in an edit, can anyone source or verify this? dcole (talk) 21:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

@Dcole: probably a French troll. JacktheBrown (talk) 17:34, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

No additives

It should be mentioned that "Prosciutto di Parma" (with PDO) is one of the very very few dry cured meats (at least between those well known to the general public) which does NOT contain food additives such as sodium nitrite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.210.100.49 (talk) 10:34, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Undue emphasis on non-Italian varieties

"It is also well known in Croatia (Dalmatia, Croatian Littoral, Lika and Istria), parts of western Slovenia (Kras, Vipava Valley), Herzegovina, Montenegro (Njeguši) and Serbia (Zlatibor and Užice) where it is known as pršut/a."

1. Does this really belong to the lede?
2. Do we need this level of geographical detail?
3. Dry-cured ham is well-known and produced in many other countries, under other names. If "prsut" is so notable, perhaps it should have its own article and we can add it to the "See also" list
4. A source for all this wouldn't harm, but that's really besides the point

58.138.12.160 (talk) 20:23, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Prosciuttini

I was looking up Jersey Mike's, a sub chain that has a few shops near me. On their menu, they have "prosciuttini" (sp), which I looked up on wikipedia. But I was redirected to the prosciutto article, which has no mention of "prosciuttini", despite the redirect from that word. Might it be good to devote a sentence or so to explaining what this is?YellowAries2010 (talk) 03:22, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Undue weight

Reporting in the lead of the article that variant of Parma Ham are produced on the Eastern Adriatic Littoral is a classic case of WP:UNDUE violation. Indeed, there are an half dozen of other countries producing similar versions of Parma Ham (namely France, Spain and Portugal) and they should be cited as well. However on a approach based on quality/quantity of sources, Parma Ham is mainly from Italy. Referencing it to other countries without violating WP:V can be possible only if adequate sourcing in English is provided and it is not the case now.

Please note that the Croatian version of the article is sloppy to the point of being ridicoulous. Indeed in the Croatian version Prosciutto is described and exclusively a Dalmatian food and there is no reference to the Italian version (and by the way this Dalmatian version of Prosciutto is a Venetian legacy). However if the aim of the Croatian editors was to enter an article exclusively for this cured meat produced in Croatia, that article should not linked to the present article. As it is today the article in Croatian cannot be considered as the translation/equivalent of the article in English. The link is therefore to be removed. --Silvio1973 (talk) 21:17, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

• Agree with your edits.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 21:46, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Incredibly Confusing

This article seriously needs to be more specific about regional/national usage of the term. To most people outside the UK, Parma ham is synonymous with Prosciutto di Parma, a specific regional product. If prosciutto and Parma ham are to be presented as synonyms it needs to be made clear that this only applies to British usage. I think it should also be made clearer in the introduction that prosciutto in English (at least American and Australian English, from what I can tell) has a more specific, limited meaning than in the original Italian. Unless I'm mistaken, prosciutto without any qualifier (like cotto, crudo or affumicato), simply means ham in Italian.

Furthermore, it's my impression that prosciutto in American usage can refer to any ham produced according to the "Prosciutto process", regardless of national or regional origin. For instance, About.com Food Reference mentions that: "Some American made prosciuttos can be found for as low as $13 per pound whereas Prosciutto de Parma can fetch up to $30 per pound." [emphasis added]. Maitreya (talk) 13:23, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

@Maitreya, you are fully right. The article should be rewritten giving a more rescricted definition of waht prosciutto is, but people from Croatia wrongly insist saying that prosciutto is also from their country. Indeed on hr:wiki, they write it is exclusively from their country (if you can read Croatian). Well, the existing article it's a compromise, but yes things should be like you say. --Silvio1973 (talk) 06:46, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

They're all just salt-cured, air-dried hams. I get the legal concept of PDO, but they're all more or less the same product, just with regional variations in process. We really ought to have an article on, say, air cured ham. 142.105.156.59 (talk) 23:08, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Such as dry-cured ham? :) --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:19, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

He wasn't talking about that at all. In fact his last sentence explicitly supports the notion of putting all prosciutto-like products in the same article, which is exactly what you're protesting. You really need to put your apparent anti-Slavic bias aside sometimes... --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:19, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that you'd move this article to prosciutto crudo? In which case, where would you point the redirects "prosciutto" and "Parma ham"? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:22, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Joy, I am not anti-Slavic at all, but I have a problem because the version of this article on hr:wiki does not make ANY reference to Parma-ham but only to a similar product from Dalmatia. This is not acceptable. You cannot expect that no-one reacts to the undue appropriation of culture and know-how. In the detail understand well what are the issues:

1. The definition of Parma-Ham is restricted to the dry-cured ham produced in Italy. Such products are not all the same, like user 142.105.156.59 claims (and by the way he/she could log in with a user name), and indeed Prosciutto di Parma (Parma Ham) is protected under EU legislation for National and Regional products under regulation n.1107/96. Do not play with such things, we speak here of strictly protected products. Every year huge quantity of fake Parma Ham are sold in Italy and world-wide. This is detrimental to the economy and costs thousands of jobs. It is paramount that on Wikipedia there is clarity about this.

2. If in Croatia there is a manufacture of another kind of dry-cured ham you are pleased to put in a different article but not here. Indeed the more I look the article and the more I am convinced the reference to production of Parma Ham out of Italy has to be removed. If you are not convinced and you insist to keep it in, I will request a third opinion.

3. The link to the this article in hr:wiki has to be removed (and indeed I will do it immediately), because the same article in hr:wiki does not correspond to the article in en:wiki.

4. If what I wrote it is not enough convincing please note that the article as it was (and at a minor extent as it is today) create a major prejudice for a regional product protected under Italian and European legislation and that is registered with a trade-mark.--Silvio1973 (talk) 12:32, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

@Joy, what I'm saying is that this article discusses terms that have different meanings depending on language and even depending on the variety of English. That being the case, I think the article needs to distinguish more clearly between the different meanings of the term and explain which usage is current where. As I was saying, if someone (i.e. a Brit) had offered me a slice of Parma ham and proceeded to serve me some generic cured ham I'd be terribly disappointed. Since English Wikipedia should be relevant to speakers of all varieties of English, however, splitting the article up into separate, more specific articles may not be a good idea. Since that option's probably off the table, I think the article itself needs to make the different possible interpretations of "prosciutto" clearer and be more explicit about which is being discussed. On the other hand, since the article already seems to basically describe "prosciutto crudo", the simplest and best solution may in fact be to move the whole thing to prosciutto crudo and point "prosciutto" and "Parma ham" to that article. The case for such a move is also strengthened by the fact that there are already articles on "presunto" and "jamón". The "prosciutto crudo" article would still have to clarify the different usages of the terms "prosciutto" and "Parma ham" in different varieties of English to avoid unnecessary confusion, however. Maitreya (talk) 12:12, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

If u dont mind ...

Please, there is no need to mention region of Dalmatia for production of italian type of prosciutto, reason why is in production proces. Only thing that Dalmatian pršut has w/ Italian prosiutto is pig, pig as source of meat. Dry-cured meat production is oldest type of meat preservation over longer time period, not related to neither, not to prosciutto or pršut, Italy or Dalmatia, or any other region. Main difference is: Dalmatian pršut is smoked dry-cured boned back pig leg, smoked, I repeat myself, smoked. Italian kind of prosciutto production in any case does not consider smoke as production proces. That is main, big, difference, so distinctive that it cant be corelated one w/ other, or even put in same box. I wish there is more sources in english, but there is allmost none. Here is one (read last line of text) from top Croatian producer of Dalmatian pršut. Here is one more source from news report for Dalmatian pršut fair in Sinj, in text winner of Best Dalmatian pršut gives advice for production of best Dalmatian pršut and says: 6. After salting, pršuti (plural) is cold smoked for cca 70 days, whith calm flow of fresh air (the room should be colder as it can be and source of smoke more away as it can be). This fact refers only to Dalmatian pršut, it does not refer to Istrian prosciuttto or Istrian špaleta (špaleta = front pig leg) which are produced in Croatia and has similar production proces as prosciutto in article. I have two sources for that but only in croatian [8] [9]. Croatia has gained a licence, again this year for export of meat/fish products on market of EU after they had ban for several years because of some shell poisoning and pig vacination (against pig plague). It is aspected that qualitiy of Dalmatian pršut and specific flavour gained from smoked production will make a consumers of EU to see big difference from similar called product italian prosciutto. --Domjanovich (talk) 13:19, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Domjanovich. So, can I understand why on hr:wiki the two were related? It looks they are clearly two different things. Defending the unicity of the regional productions is today a big issue in Europe. There is a immense variety in Europe and this is reflected in the different productions of food. I welcome the Croatian users to create on en:wiki an article describing their Dalmatian Ham, avoiding association to other regional productions. I have no idea on how many kind of dry-cured ham exists, perhaps dozens. Well, for each of them I welcome the users to create an article and to regroup all of them in dry-cured hm. --Silvio1973 (talk) 09:16, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Silvio1973, u r welcome. I fell I need to say one more fact that will become big issue for Istrian prosciutto and Istrian špaleta and reflects to Parma Ham or Italian prosciutto. Similar production proces, exept that Istrian prosciutto and Istrian špaleta are skin removed before dry-cured proces starts. There was no need to remove Istrian prosciutto from italian kind production of prosciutto. I give u head ups for Istrian prosciutto/špaleta because it will gain a protection over regulation agency in Croatia and EU as specific origin product related to specific pig meat carvin method and dry-cure(ing) proces. I dont have idea how many dry-cured hams there is in world, dozen is small number. In Dalmatia we recognize over dozen diferent production types for Dalmatian pršut, soo no hope that over time number wont rise, because in last 10 years or so in several fairs that were held in diferent parts of Dalmatia always showed incoming of couple of new producers w/ their own production proces that was specific in some way and different from allready seen ones. My english is poor and I dont contribute as much as want on en: wiki. --Domjanovich (talk) 12:46, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

prosciutto in Italian

The article should make clear that prosciutto is simply the Italian word for ham, jambon, or Schinken. If there are any regions in the world where that word has a more specialized meaning, this should be explained. --217.226.93.72 (talk) 09:59, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Prosciutto is produced everywhere

As a Greek i know that I can find Greek prosciutto in Greece. It is frequently found in the greek gastronomic literature as ελληνικό προσούτο, although I'd rather not cite greek sources here. I added the mention of greek prosciutto found in the Fodor's Travel Guide. User Macrakis is requested to leave my edit in peace. Of course other countries produce prosciutto as well.--10tex (talk) 18:19, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

You can find hams called "prosciutto" in many places: the US, Japan, Greece, etc. There is nothing special about Greece here, and certainly no reason to mention Greece in the lead. But I will add a source for ελληνικό προσούτο to the other sources -- does that help? --Macrakis (talk) 19:59, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

"Proscuittini" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Proscuittini. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Steel1943 (talk) 02:52, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Wording of lead

@Pol098: your recent series of edits changed the first sentence to:

Prosciutto ... is the Italian word for the foodstuff ham.

But WP is not a dictionary, certainly not an Italian dictionary. The fact that "prosciutto" by itself means any kind of ham in Italian is certainly important and worth mentioning in the article, but does not belong in the first sentence, since in English, "prosciutto" almost always means what is called in Italian "prosciutto crudo". Similarly, gelato does not start "Gelato is the Italian word for ice cream", even though in Italy, crummy industrial ice cream is just as much gelato as is fine artisanal ice cream. And latte does not start "Latte is the Italian word for milk", even though if you order latte in an Italian bar, you will get milk, not coffee with milk. One possible approach to this would be to reframe the first sentence like this:

Prosciutto, or prosciutto crudo in full, is Italian uncooked dry-cured ham.

Thoughts? --Macrakis (talk) 16:23, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

I understand what you want to do.

I'm kinda prescriptivist by instinct; if "prosciutto" means ham in general, then the opening sentence of the lede shouldn't be about specifically "prosciutto crudo". I can't buy prosciutto cotto in the supermarket, but I can buy it in the nearest Italian deli.

I didn't know that "gelato" included any kind of "ice cream" - I thought it referred specifically to sorbet-style ices. I am now better-informed.

MrDemeanour (talk) 13:55, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

What do the best sources on the topic have to say? --Hipal (talk) 15:01, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

"Prosciutto" by itself means ham in general in Italian. In English, it always or almost always means the dry-cured, unsmoked, uncooked kind that is called prosciutto crudo in Italian:

In America, the word prosciutto typically refers to a particular Italian-inspired style of cured but uncooked ham, very thinly sliced

Of course in an Italian deli in the US might sell you "prosciutto cotto", and they might also sell you "insalata caprese". But as far as I know, neither of those terms is widely used in English.

As for gelato, it does not refer to a "sorbet-style ice" either in Italy or in the US: gelato and sorbetto are contrasted, the first being based on milk and cream, the second being based on fruit juice. In Italy, gelato can be anything the wonderful artisanal stuff [10], but it can also be the industrial stuff like the premade cones you buy from a freezer[11].

In the US, "gelato" is only used for the artisanal-style stuff, even if it's made industrially, like Talenti[12]. Compared to regular US ice cream, it is lower in fat and more intense in flavor.

Anyway, the point is that the same word means different things in the two languages.

Re sources, see for example [13]. In the Joy of Cooking, they don't even bother to explain that there is anything other than crudo, but that's clearly what they're describing.[14] --Macrakis (talk) 16:31, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. From that response, I believe the last paragraph of the current lede, "In Italian, prosciutto means..." confuses the topic and its notability. --Hipal (talk) 23:49, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

How about simply removing the last paragraph from the lede? --Hipal (talk) 19:39, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

You can easily find a food described as "prosciutto cotto" in an English-speaking context (there's an example linked int hte article, and a Web search for the term in English-language URLs will find plenty more), which makes it as much a candidate for an English-language encyclopaedia as "prosciutto" itself. It would be quite normal for someone seeing "prosciutto cotto" in a shop to look it up in Wikipedia (I've looked up unfamiliar foods). Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 21:44, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

There are several issues here:

• Of course users should be able to find things under multiple names, including foreign names. That's why there's a redirect at prosciutto cotto, as there is for caffelatte.
• If they came to this article looking for cotto, we already describe the difference and include a link to Ham#prosciutto cotto.
• It's not unusual to use foreign names in food shops. That doesn't make prosciutto cotto into the usual English name for "cooked ham".
• Even if it were commonly used in English contexts, why does it belong in this article, which is about prosciutto crudo, rather than in the prosciutto cotto article (which is currently part of the Ham article)?

Best, --Macrakis (talk) 22:38, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Prosciutto cotto

WP is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. This article is not about the uses of the word prosciutto, but about the food that is called that in English -- and called prosciutto crudo in Italian. Prosciutto cotto is not the topic of this article, so the sentence "Cooked ham from Italy, or made in Italian style, may be sold as prosciutto cotto in English-speaking regions." is out of place here. The source given only shows that one retailer in the UK includes the Italian name along with the description "Italian Cooked Ham". That is not evidence that "prosciutto cotto" is being used as the English name.

That said, we do need better coverage of cooked ham, probably in the ham article. --Macrakis (talk) 15:10, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I have added info on prosciutto cotto to ham#Prosciutto cotto. --Macrakis (talk) 18:45, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree. Thank you. --Hipal (talk) 19:37, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

The last paragraph of the lead currently reads:

In Italian, prosciutto means any kind of ham, either dry-cured (prosciutto crudo or simply crudo) or cooked (prosciutto cotto), but outside Italy, it usually means either Italian prosciutto crudo or similar hams made elsewhere. Cooked ham from Italy, or made in Italian style, may be sold as prosciutto cotto in English-speaking regions.

Now that there's a link to prosciutto cotto, I think we can delete the last sentence ("Cooked ham from Italy, or made in Italian style, may be sold as prosciutto cotto in English-speaking regions."). For one thing, the cited reference is just an example of the Italian name being used alongside the English name "cooked ham" and doesn't show that it's common usage. For another, further information about prosciutto cotto belongs in Ham#prosciutto cotto, not here.

But I will not be bold and remove it myself because User:Pol098 and User:CapnZapp might disagree. Can we establish a quick consensus on the right thing to do? --Macrakis (talk) 20:26, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

This issue was for prosciutto cotto to lead to an article that actually discussed the topic. When the only article that did so was this article, I redirected prosciutto cotto here. Now that Ham discusses prosciutto cotto it is okay to redirect prosciutto cotto there instead. CapnZapp (talk) 07:12, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

New title

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. Per nominator's reply agreeing with my opposition, I am pretty sure that he is no longer requesting this move. (Of course, JacktheBrown may undo this if I am mistaken.) WP:RMEC (closed by non-admin page mover) SilverLocust 💬 21:09, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

---

Prosciutto → Prosciutto crudo – I propose changing the title: prosciutto (lit. 'ham') is a cut of pork, while prosciutto crudo, the subject of this article, is an Italian salume. JacktheBrown (talk) 17:27, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME in English. This is the same situation as Sombrero (lit. 'hat'), Salsa (food) (lit. 'sauce'), or Jamón (lit. 'ham'). When used in English as a loan word, it has a more specific meaning than the word's much more general meaning in its language of origin. In English, prosciutto almost always refers to this specific type rather than to ham generally, and it is rarely written out as prosciutto crudo (Google Ngrams). SilverLocust 💬 20:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
  • @SilverLocust: I get it, I agree with this. JacktheBrown (talk) 20:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.